Elizabeth Corbett: 0:03

There's nothing more painful than getting an Amazon shipping box and then opening it up and then your thing is like this much of it out of a really big box. So, that's wasteful in two ways. It's wasteful from a cost perspective and it's wasteful from a sustainability perspective because a cost of a box, 50 percent of the cost of the box is the substrate itself. So, whether it's the paper, the plastic, whatever that is. So, you've paid too much. And you've used more material than you needed to.

Tom Raftery: 0:33

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast, the number one podcast focusing on sustainability and supply chains, and I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Hi everyone. And welcome to episode 26 of the sustainable supply chain podcast. My name is Tom Raftery, and I'm excited to be here with you today sharing the latest insights and trends in supply chain sustainability. Before we kick off today's show I want to take a moment to express my sincere gratitude to all of this podcast's amazing supporters. Your support has been instrumental in keeping this podcast going, and I'm really grateful for each and every one of you. If you're not already a supporter. I'd like to encourage you to consider joining our community of like-minded individuals who are passionate about sustainability and supply chains. Supporting the podcast is easy and affordable with options starting as low as just three euros or dollars a month. That's less than the cost of a cup of coffee and your support would make a huge difference in keeping this show going strong. To become a supporter you simply click on the support link in the show notes of this or any episode. Or visit. Tiny url.com/s S C pod. In today's episode, I'm going to be talking to Elizabeth Corbett from AE Global, and we'll be talking about sustainable packaging. And in upcoming episodes, I'll be talking to Lenny Marano from Lectra, Barry Bradley from Crisp. Dario Ambrosini from Propel Software and John Sicard from Kinaxis. So keep an eye out for those episodes coming up shortly. Back to today's episode. As I mentioned today, My special guest is Elizabeth Elizabeth. Welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Elizabeth Corbett: 2:19

Absolutely. Good morning, Tom. And good morning, everyone. My name is Elizabeth Corbett. I am the president of the enterprise team at A. E. Global. We are a end to end packaging service provider. Everything from starting with graphic and structural design, all the way through prototyping, manufacturing, full supply chain management, warehousing, et cetera. I have more than 25 years of experience in packaging. I don't like to say how long it is because then it makes me sound really old. That's the bad part when you have a lot of experience, right? People can start dialing back in the numbers. I started with graphic design, and print production and then spent 17 years on the paper side. So working for a paper mill and really getting to understand full manufacturing of packaging all the way down to the fibers. And then eventually expanded my packaging expertise. I tend to work with large CPGs, health and beauty, a lot of nutraceuticals and supplements. Good for you products. I like to work with industries and products that I feel good about. I've always said that I couldn't sell nuclear weapons. I have to feel good about the industries that I, I, I work with. and I live part time in South Florida and part time in Seattle. Seattle's my, my heart home. And South Florida is where my company is headquartered.

Tom Raftery: 3:43

Okay. Very nice. Very nice. And why packaging? Why, why did you decide to pursue that as a career?

Elizabeth Corbett: 3:50

So when I started on the paper mill side, I was working with a lot of really great companies like Starbucks and Estee Lauder and Tiffany and was starting to work with them just on like their commercial paper needs, and then figured out where they really had bigger needs was on the packaging side and decided and figured out that I, I really loved it. I love going into a store or seeing somebody post something on Instagram of the package that they received and that, that experience. It's, the other thing is that I'm And I know obviously we talk about this. I sustainability is part of my core. I grew up in Portland, Oregon, where my family had a half acre garden and I had, I didn't buy vegetables in a store till I was like 22. And I didn't realize I was growing up in a sustainable format because we didn't really talk about it then, right? You just, that's just what you did. And then you figured out that that's what you were doing. And then figured out along the time that I was working for this paper mill, Neenah Paper and working with these amazing companies that packaging was really where I could have that most impact. And that's when you started having a lot of people thinking, okay, I'm, I'm making these paper bags and they're great and they represent my brand, but what if I move them from virgin to 30 percent post consumer, or 40 percent, or 50%? What were some of those things that we could be doing? I was really lucky to be working with Starbucks during the time that they were as a company had decided they really wanted to try to move to as high a post consumer content, even a hundred. on anything that they possibly could. I think that that's just when I started falling in love with packaging. My husband, my husband is trained now, so I travel quite a bit and whenever I come home there's always like different boxes and stuff that he's received, that he's saved, that he's sure that I'm going to want to see. I just love that whole, I love the experience. I absolutely love the experience. I love how it's a way to communicate with the customer. Right now, think about the fact that so many of of us buy things where we never go into a store. So we never interact with somebody. So the packaging is how that, that brand is building a relationship with a customer. And honestly, anytime we're working on something, I, I, I mentioned to you in an earlier discussion that I'm working on a very large rebrand with a CPG and a big part of what we're trying to accomplish is how is the packaging going to help build a relationship with the customer and communicate with the customer? Because there's there's a really good chance they're going to not interact with a human before they buy it

Tom Raftery: 6:41

Fair enough, fair enough. And I, I remember on the prep call mentioning this to you, and I think I've mentioned it here on this podcast before, but I was speaking at an event a couple of years ago now. And I asked the audience, you know, put up your hands if you've ever bought an Apple product. And, you know, 90 percent of the hands went up in the room and I said, okay, keep your hands up if you still have the package, it came in and almost all the hands remained up. And it's a testament to how well Apple does the packaging of their goods. The people keep the boxes they came in because I'm surrounded by stuff on this table. Keyboards, batteries, mug, bits and pieces. Almost none of them have I kept the packaging for except the computer here and the phone. You know, it's, it's, it's incredible. And it's, it's to your point of how packaging we don't think of it until we do as in for the majority of things that we get in packaging. It's, it's an annoyance and, you know, you have to get the scissors out on some of the plastic stuff to cut through it. It's not easy open, but when you get really good packaging, it can actually make a considerable difference.

Elizabeth Corbett: 8:00

I'll be, I'm super guilty as much as everybody else to have a lot of apple boxes and it's funny, every time we've moved is the one time you recycle them because you're like, I'm not going to move my apple boxes. That's crazy, right? They do an amazing, they do an amazing job. I can't tell you how many times I sit in a meeting with it, a new client or an existing client and we're starting something and the first thing they'll say is you know, by the way, we, you know, is there anything that we can think of? You know, I love apple packaging. Is there anything that we can pull from that? Right? When we're looking at this I would say that there's a couple of really interesting things that they do that are really important. You probably don't even realize it, but one of the things they do really well is the packaging is right sized. There's no waste, right? When you open that iPhone, when you open even your iWatch, it's very slim, right? It's still a great experience, it's very slim, you still feel like, you know, I I've bought this great product, but it's truly right sized, which is super sustainable. That's the, that's the first thing you can do from a sustainability perspective. And they have very strict directives in terms of the paper, how it's printed, recyclability. They do a very, very good job from that perspective. And, obviously, it's super elegant, so you don't feel like you're sacrificing.

Tom Raftery: 9:19

And not only that, but also the plastic content of their packaging has come down and down and down in the last number of years. I've noticed as well, which is also really impressive. So yeah, you, you mentioned how right sizing is important and how it's sustainable. So, obviously we've all received cartons or boxes when you open it up and it's this big box inside it's this little tiny thing. Join the dots for people who are listening why that's not sustainable because obviously I know but maybe not everyone who's listening has thought about this.

Elizabeth Corbett: 9:56

So, So many different ways to look at that. So, when somebody asks me one of my big personal mantras is there is no one way to be sustainable. There are lots of little things that you can do in your personal life and your professional life to be sustainable. And when I'm looking at somebody's packaging, whether we're designing something new or, looking at an existing thing, the very first thing that I do is look and see if the box is too big. And think about I mentioned I'm working on this one project, part of it is 78 existing SKUs. And so I got all 78 existing SKUs sent to me. So I've taken up a corner in our corporate office and because they're large items. And the very first thing is, you know, I picked up some of the boxes and I could shake them and I could hear it moving around in there, right? So that automatically means to me that the box is too big. And so that's on a small level or think about when you get your Amazon boxes. And there's nothing more painful than getting an Amazon shipping box and then opening it up and then your thing is like this much of it out of a really big box. So, that's wasteful in two ways. It's wasteful from a cost perspective and it's wasteful from a sustainability perspective because a cost of a box, 50 percent of the cost of the box is the substrate itself. So, whether it's the paper, the plastic, whatever that is. So, you've paid too much. And you've used more material than you needed to. So, if you can even reduce the amount of material you're using, again, whatever that is, glass, plastic, film, corrugated paperboard, if you can reduce that even by 10%, you've made a big impact to your bottom line, and you've made a big impact to your to your sustainability line, if you want to look at it that way. Along those sides, One of the other things we also look at, and this doesn't apply to everything by any means, but are there ways I don't know if you've ever heard of SIOC, S I O C.

Tom Raftery: 11:59

Yep.

Elizabeth Corbett: 12:00

It's it stands for ship in its own container. And, and I think Amazon's the one who actually came up with that acronym, but there are there are many things that we work on with customers to figure out if, is it something that could qualify for SIOC, right? And that's, that helps on a number of things. One, you just think of, again, there's a whole extra box that we eliminated, right? So from a sustainability perspective, that's huge. And then you also happen to save money within the Amazon system if you're able to do that as well. So, that that's one of the other ways, again, extra packaging that you don't need and, and the only other thing I would mention also is, if I I recently purchased, and I won't say what the name of the company is, but I recently purchased something at Costco and the box, I opened it up and the box ended up being twice as large as the item that I purchased it in. And I, I felt I was truly offended on, on a sustainability perspective, but I was also offended by the perspective that I felt like I got kind of, I felt cheated, right? Like, wow, I thought that box was full of all that stuff, but it's only full of half that stuff. So it's, it's as, as a consumer, you feel misled. And that's the other thing to think about as well.

Tom Raftery: 13:21

Yeah, yeah. I remember when Apple announced that they were no longer shipping chargers with their phones. In the announcement they said it allows them to reduce the size of the packaging and therefore they could fit that many more iPhone boxes into a 40 foot container.

Elizabeth Corbett: 13:42

Yep.

Tom Raftery: 13:43

I can't remember what the numbers were now, but it was almost twice as many. It was almost twice as many phones in a 40 foot container. So therefore they were reducing massively the 40 foot containers that were shipping and therefore either, whether it was going in planes or ships or whatever, the amount of planes or ships or whatever was halved again. And so that another sustainability win. If you're not shipping air, you, you're obviously that that's obviously a sustainability win as well.

Elizabeth Corbett: 14:08

That's part of when, when we are right sizing. The other thing that we look at is then we also look at palette configurations, because that applies even in the United States. So the single largest violator, if you want to, contributor to global warming is transportation. I think air is first and then ship is second. And so, you know, we, we, and obviously ground transportation, but even if it's only shipping from Monterey, Mexico to Chicago, Illinois that's still significant. So if you can reduce yourself from 20 skids down to 15 or something, that's, that's huge. And again, It helps from a sustainability perspective, but it also saves you money. I love the fact that you can be sustainable and still save money because a lot of people always think that to be sustainable means I have to spend a bunch more money and it can often work often the other way.

Tom Raftery: 15:02

Yeah, yeah, no, completely, completely. What is the pressure to be more sustainable that you're finding with the customers you're working for?

Elizabeth Corbett: 15:12

So, you know, it comes from, it comes from a lot. It comes from the consumer, right? Absolutely. It comes from the consumer. And what we're finding is know I've, I've talked about this before. There's perceived sustainability and then there's real sustainability. And that's really, that's really important because a customer may perceive something as being really sustainable and it's, it's not and or, or, and, and vice versa. So one of the things that I have a personal problem with is everybody moving stuff to glass so fast because as as as a whole, glass is it's it. It takes a lot more water to make. It takes a lot more energy to make. It takes a lot more water and energy to recycle. So everybody going, Oh, I'm just going to move all my plastic bottles to glass. You brought up shipping. It takes so much more to ship from an energy, you know, a fuel perspective. So, it comes from the consumer who thinks, Oh, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get rid of this plastic bottle and now I'm gonna have a glass one. And now I've completely saved the world. Well, not really. There's a lot more consideration there. It come. So it comes from that. It comes from boards. To be honest, corporate boards are demanding it. It comes from the general public. It comes from regulation. There are states California is looking at banning all kinds of things that everybody has to start looking at. Okay. So how do, how do I, how do I address that? And if they decide that they're going to ban, I'm just going to say, if they decide to plan all ban, all virgin plastics, well, if I'm a company and I'm sending in a lot of product into California, is it better for me to just make whatever changes required across the line? Or do I only change my packaging that's going into California? That's a, that's a pretty complicated decision. I do a lot of work in the, in the cannabis space as well. And the state of New York has made the decision that anything that's plastic has to be at least 30 percent post consumer. Which I actually think is great. That's not that hard. Honestly in the, in the case, I'll, in some items there's no increase in cost. In some items, it's truly pennies. You know, so that, that decision was, was regulatory, right? So it comes, it comes from a lot of different places. I do think that now it's just a matter of doing, it's, it's just a matter of doing good business, right? And I I, I I work with a large entity that In a lot of the meetings that we have with them now that might be working with packaging, there's a, there's a member from the ESG team in the room, right? Because they're, they're part of that decision making process, right? So what can we be doing? And that, and that goes down to everything from the manufacturing of the actual product that's going to be sold to translating everywhere about, you know, how's it going to be packaged? Where's that packaging going to be made? All, all the way through the line. So it's a, it's a very, thoughtful process. And I think that for a lot of people, it's, it's it's just, it's a matter of doing good business. One of the things I would caution and I, and again, I mentioned perceived in real sustainability is whatever you do is make sure that you're educating the consumer as to what you're doing and why you're doing it, whether it be on LinkedIn or your website or your packaging itself, or, or your advertising, your marketing plan, whatever that is, because I see companies doing certain things that are sustainable, but the consumer doesn't understand it. So in the case of natural products right now, natural food, it is all about regenerative agriculture. They talk about it all the time, which is awesome. The normal consumer probably can figure out, Oh, that's probably a good thing, but doesn't understand it. What they do understand is if they look at their package and it says recyclable or 30 percent post consumer or, you know, whatever, or compostable or biodegradable or whatever that is, they do understand that. Or if you put on the package what you said, redesigned, 25 percent less packaging involved now, right? Things like that they understand.

Tom Raftery: 19:31

And walk me through the process as in, if I come to you and say, Elizabeth, I've got this new widget that I want to ship, help me design packaging for it. And I'd like it by the way to be sustainable. What happens next?

Elizabeth Corbett: 20:20

Okay so the first thing I'm going to ask is where is your widget being made? Because that's going to help me, that's going to help me determine where I'm going to actually produce the packaging. The very first thing that we do is we ask you for a sample of the widget. And sometimes the widget, I, you, I don't, I can't get a sample yet because it's still in drawing form, right? So that's Okay. If I get the drawing my company has two 3D printers on site. So sometimes if, if that's what we end up doing is we have to do a 3D print because that's the best we can do. So, then we evaluate, is it something that's fragile? That's gonna how is it gonna be packed out? Or is it gonna be in packs out of one? Is it gonna be packed out of six? So, I mean, that, that helps us determine how that's going to be done. My first thing just from my heart as well as my company is how are we going to make that sustainable? So is it something that is large, small? I mean, there's so many considerations. Again, is it something that is going to be small that's then, you know, packed out in some sort of display ready carton for somebody to buy one at, you know, one at a time? Is it something that's large that I have to look at, okay, this is something that's going to be shipped direct to consumer, and it's got to be something that's got a you know, we've got to protect it in that process. So how can we design it in such a way that we're using all sustainable materials, whether it's recycled, recyclable or both? As a whole, we try to design not using plastic. Sometimes you have to. My company has invested in a, another facility in the Dominican Republic where we gather and process what would have been ocean bound plastic. So in some cases we're actually able to incorporate that. It's it's, it's cleaned, it's processed, it's flaked, it's brought back to Miami where then it's processed to make new packaging. So in some cases we can do that. You know, those are, those are all considerations in terms of what the material is. And it's also like What is what's the consumer's brand all about, right? What's the most important thing to them? What are their customers doing? One of the things it does, the product need to be seen. Sometimes you have a product that somebody needs to be able to see on shelf. So do I need to figure out how to do some sort of plastic window where the item can't be damaged, but I'm going to be using a plastic substrate that is recycled, recyclable ocean bound plastic, whatever, whatever that is. There are a lot of considerations. Is it something that needs to go in a plastic bottle like Windex? But Windex has done something really amazing and they're putting all their bottles and bottles that are made from ocean bound plastic. That's awesome. Right? So, again, I think I'm in meetings where people say, I don't want any plastic and then you start getting down the path and you figure we probably have to incorporate some plastic based on what you're asking me for, but there are some great ways to make that as sustainable as possible while considering other things. I know I went all over the place.

Tom Raftery: 23:31

No, no, but the, I, I, I knew it was a, almost an unfair question because you had very little to work off except it was a widget, so.

Elizabeth Corbett: 23:39

Well, it's, it, yeah, it's, and and part of the most amazing thing about what I do is that we get to work on so many different kinds of products. Everything, everything from doing packaging for flea spray to doing, I know, see I told you we get to, to water filtration systems to to spicy walnuts. So, that's a pretty wide range, right?

Tom Raftery: 24:05

is, it is, it is. And you mentioned you're doing some cannabis products as well.

Elizabeth Corbett: 24:09

We do. So, cannabis is a lot like health and beauty, which is actually part of the thing I love about both markets is. There's so many different form factors. There's so many different kinds of products and it's really, really fun to work with industries like that, where, you know, you're being asked to develop something for a lotion or a balm or a spray or a gummy or a capsule, and each one has different requirements in terms of the packaging, just in terms of protecting the product. Maybe it has to be child resistant. You want it to be as sustainable as possible. You want it to be a great customer experience. You want it to perform well on shelf. Those are all the different things to consider, but that makes it fun, right? If it was easy, it would be boring.

Tom Raftery: 24:58

Fair enough. And the, the trends in this space, I mean, I, I, I want to think since 2020, since COVID, the trend towards sustainability has gained a huge amount of momentum. Maybe that's a personal bias. Have you seen something similar?

Elizabeth Corbett: 25:18

Oh, absolutely. I, I will here is a, here's a really good comparison. So it's 2024. In 2019, 2018, 2019, I worked on a really large launch for, actually it was a canvas company, but it could, it could have been anybody. A large launch, six new brands, took a year, all kinds of different form factors. They're launching it and I get a phone call and I get a phone call on something that we've been working on for literally 14 months. And it's the packaging's produced, they're starting, it's going into stores, everybody's excited, and they said, hey marketing just called, and they want to know what's sustainable about our packaging. So, again, that's five, six years ago, right? Now, just because of who I am, I had already specified we were using papers that were high post consumer content, recyclable, FSC certified. There were a lot of things on the, on the, on the items that I had control over, that I had already specified something that was the right way to do it, just because that's what I would do, right? That phone call would never happen now. That, that would have been in the very first conversation about, Hey, we're developing a new brand these are the items that are going to be in it. We need to talk about packaging. By the way, everything that we design has got to be sustainable. Whether it's the substrate, whether it's the package itself, whether it's the structure, whether it's, you know, is it recycled, recyclable, where it's made all of, all of those things that would never happen now. And so, and that's kind of right. There's, that's a really direct correlation about about how the market changed. The other thing is, I would tell you that five, six years ago. It might have been like, I just need it to be the, you know, the lowest price possible without even really asking where it was going to be made. And now it's, it's more along the lines of, is, can we make this domestically? If we can't make this domestically, why? Right? You know, what are, what are those, what are those considerations? And I start almost there, unless, unless the item is made in China or Taiwan or Vietnam, and then that makes sense, right? You should be making the packaging there. Okay. But if, but if it's something that's made here, there has to be a really specific reason why I would recommend not doing the packaging here. And it may be like a, maybe it takes a ton of handwork, maybe it's glass or tin that can only be made, you know, only manufactured offshore. There's got to be a really good reason, but that would be another big change. That you would have seen in the last five, six years. So, the, the pandemic changed a lot in terms of how people look at the entire chain. And like you said, I mean, some hard, some hard lessons and some lessons that I think are for the benefit of us.

Tom Raftery: 28:54

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we've had that big a change from 2018, 2019 to today. Where are things going to go in the next four or five years, do you think?

Elizabeth Corbett: 29:07

I think you're going to see an amazing amount of research and development into compostability and biodegradability. Those are it's there's a lot of research. It's not perfect yet. Like there's compostable films right now, but they're not great at taking care of the end, the area that I get the most requests for compostable film is food. So think of you know, potato chips, nuts gummies, whatever that is. And by nature of it being compostable, it starts breaking down the moment it's made. So I had a very personal experience. I got some potato chips at Whole Foods and I got them home and I opened up the, I shouldn't have been buying potato chips. This is probably what's telling me the real core. So I buy potato chips, I get them home. I open them, I take one bite and it's totally stale. And I was like, Oh, maybe I just got a bad chip, tried the next one and I'm like, maybe it's just me. So I made my husband taste one. He's like, no, those are stale. And then I looked at the date and the date, it was four months from expiration. So I look at the bag and the bag says it's compostable. So I sent a note, I never do this, I sent a note to the, you know, the info on the, on the company website. And I just said, Hey, I just thought you'd like to know that that I just bought these chips at a whole foods in Fort Lauderdale. They were stale. I thought you'd like to know, right? I got an email from the president of the company within like 30 minutes. Good on her. And she just said, hey, thank you very much. We are actually in the process of converting all of our packaging back to a, to a, not a virgin film. I think they were able to do a 25 or 30 percent post consumer film. Because we were having so many problems with the compostable film and keeping the products fresh. And so you have two issues. One is, is when it starts breaking down as soon as it's made. Kind of makes sense. That's the whole point. So that means you're gonna lose some ability in terms of really protecting the product, which is the number one thing that you should want to do on packaging anyways, it should take care of the product. And the other things, the other thing is, if it's in an environment where there's any humidity, it breaks down faster. So there's humidity in South Florida, so kind of takes care of it. So, That's a really personal story that is that's, that's really true. And so there are a lot of companies, particularly when you look at natural foods, natural products that want to do the right thing, right? They want to make a product that's in a package that, you know, has a light footprint that somebody can literally put in their industrial composting or their composter in the backyard. And isn't there in two, three months or whatever. And I think that we're really close to that. Yeah. probably within a year to two. So for, so for me, I think that's pretty exciting. Just because they're flexible packaging is actually a great form factor in many ways. It's easy for the customer. You mentioned shipping. How much less is it to ship this tiny little flat bag when it's, you know, made than it is even a box? It weighs less. It's just super easy to use. It honestly keeps the product fresher with a, with a zipper than, you know, the bag that you're rolling up within your box of crackers. It uses less packaging overall, but recyclability, compostability, biodegradability has been the roadblock, right? So I, I, and and it's funny because, I mean, who knows, I never would have thought I'd be the person going, yeah, flexible packaging, man, that, that makes so much sense, but it does in a lot of ways, right? And it goes back to my line that there's no one way to be sustainable. So I think that is, is coming. And again, I think you'll also see more stuff in true biodegradability, where you've got enzymes, and there's some people doing it, but I think there's a lot of opportunity in that, whether it be plastics, film, even paperboard, because if you put paperboard and it ends up in a landfill, it it, it, it won't biodegrade, it, it needs access to oxygen and water, for it, for it to break down. So, I think that's exciting. I think that as a as a population, particularly in the United States, because Europe, you guys are so much better than we are at this, as a population in the United States, we have much room for improvement in recycling and composting programs. And part of our problem is it's, it's municipality by municipality. So in Seattle, I can literally recycle everything. I have curbside composting and if they check, if they catch you putting food waste in your garbage bin, they put a note on it, they fine you and they won't pick it up. So, and I don't have a problem with that. I think it's awesome because it trains you so fast. It pains me to have to put food waste in my garbage in Fort Lauderdale. It's, it's just, it's just a waste. So I think I think the companies can do a lot, whether it's my company in terms of what we develop, or an end user who's demanding to do sustainable packaging. But I think that the other thing that has to happen, and that's got to come from people like me and demanding more of their municipality is, is what can we do to expand our recycling and composting programs? What can we make it so it's easier? Because the percentage of people for the percentage of waste that's recycled in the United States is so low, it's embarrassing. It's under 10%.

Tom Raftery: 34:38

Wow.

Elizabeth Corbett: 34:39

I don't mean to be a bummer.

Tom Raftery: 34:41

it's okay. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now, Elizabeth. Is there any question I haven't asked that you wish I had or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of?

Elizabeth Corbett: 34:55

I, I I will have people ask me, what's the one thing I can do to be most sustainable, right? And I hate that question. But it's a, but it's a good question, because for me, it's and I said this before, there's, there's no one way to be sustainable. And there are lots of baby steps, and it can be as simple as if you're doing flexible packaging right now, move it to 30 or 40 percent post consumer, right? That's that's one easy step, and be, be willing to pay a couple pennies more because it's the right thing to do. Or, talk to your packaging provider right now, or your designer and say, Hey, I'm looking at our box, is there any way we can reduce the size even 5%, even 10%? I think for me, that's the, it's the hardest question and you can also think about it in your personal life, right? I mean, we can all make, we can all make changes in our personal and our, and our our professional life and we can demand more of our companies. So that would, you know, that for me is the one question you didn't ask, but it's and I hate it, but it's a good question to have a conversation around.

Tom Raftery: 36:05

Sure, sure, sure. And I would say, yes, maybe it might cost one or two pennies more, but the flip side is it makes you more attractive and more competitive to your potential customers. So, it, it should work out in the end. And eventually I think eventually as you become more sustainable anyway, you're de facto becoming more efficient to your earlier point using less material. So it should work out cheaper long run.

Elizabeth Corbett: 36:31

Absolutely. One of my favorite stories about that is I actually had a client say to me, it was, they were doing catalogs back when I was doing paper and they said, and they were deciding, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna move all of our catalogs to FSC paper. And this was back when Forest Stewardship Council paper had just become available and it was more expensive. And I looked at their catalog that we were working on and I said, well, it's going to raise the price about 25 percent and I'll never forget the chief marketing officer looking at me. She goes, I don't want to be that sustainable. And I was like, and I was like, okay, so let's figure out a different way. So what we did is we worked with them and we reduced the overall size of the catalog to get to the point where they could move it to FSC and they were cost neutral. But my favorite line of ever is, I don't want to be that sustainable, Beth.

Tom Raftery: 37:21

Luckily, we're, we're moving away from that now. Cool.

Elizabeth Corbett: 37:23

we are.

Tom Raftery: 37:24

Elizabeth, if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?

Elizabeth Corbett: 37:31

Actually the best way to reach me is on LinkedIn. So, I'm Elizabeth Corbett on LinkedIn and I'm, I'm not, I, I'm sure I do not have as many followers as you, but I am fairly active and I'm very responsive and my contact information is on there. So it's easy.

Tom Raftery: 37:48

Perfect. Great. I'll put a link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes so everyone has access to it. Elizabeth, that's been, that's been fantastic. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

Elizabeth Corbett: 37:57

Thank you.

Tom Raftery: 37:59

Okay. Thank you all for tuning into this episode of the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast with me, Tom Raftery. Each week, thousands of supply chain professionals listen to this show. If you or your organization want to connect with this dedicated audience, consider becoming a sponsor. You can opt for exclusive episode branding where you choose the guests or a personalized 30 second ad roll. It's a unique opportunity to reach industry experts and influencers. For more details, hit me up on Twitter or LinkedIn, or drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com. Together, let's shape the future of sustainable supply chains. Thanks. Catch you all next time.