Are you doing it for the sake of doing it, right? It goes to intent, it goes to the why, right. Simon Sinek won't use him often. But why are you doing it, is it to put a label on your box? Or is it to make a difference? Is it to hold a vendor in Asia or elsewhere, accountable to ensuring that they're taking care of the environment? That they're hiring practices are in place? That they're not causing harm? Or is it again to to be able to say that you're doing something Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast, the number one podcast focusing on sustainability and supply chains, and I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Hi everyone. And welcome to episode 39 of the sustainable. Supply chain podcast. My name is Tom Raftery, and I'm excited to be here. With you today. Sharing the latest insights and trends in supply chain sustainability. Before we kick off today's show. I'd like to take a moment to express my gratitude to all of his podcast's amazing supporters. Your support has been instrumental in keeping this podcast going. And I'm really grateful for each and every one of you. If you're not already. Already a supporter I'd like to encourage you to consider joining our community of like-minded individuals who are passionate about sustainability and supply chains. Supporting the podcast is easy and affordable with options starting as low as just three euros. Our dollars a month. That's less than the cost of a cup of coffee and your support will make a huge difference in helping me keep this show going strong. To become a supporter you simply click on the support link in the show notes of this or any episode or visit tinyurl.com/ s S C pod. In today's episode. I'll be talking to Spencer Malcolm from foresight. And in upcoming episodes, I would be talking to. Karl McDermott from Deltatrak, Joan Flinn from the ESG Institute. Ganesh from Conversesight, and Thom Campbell from Capacity LLC. But as I said in today's episode, I'm talking to Spencer. Spencer welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself? Sure. Sure. Thanks for having me. First of all. Yeah, I've got the 20 plus years of experience, leadership experience primarily. And I guess I'm at the stage of my career where I say 20 plus, right? I don't use the actual number. The 20 plus years experience in manufacturing distribution and strategic sourcing. This is across a number of different industries companies, both large and small, domestic and foreign. And I did this purposely because I wanted to learn as much as I could about the. as much as I could. And I was told that if you do that right, it always leads back to supply chain. And so for the last year, I've been serving as Principal at Forsyth Advisors, which is a supply chain consulting firm located in St. Louis. Our founders, Jim Pratt and Nathan Overburn, worked in the industry for a number of years, including working together for, I think, just under a decade and noticed a gap in consulting services. And addressed that by building and starting Forsyth Advisors. I think the approach is best captured in two elements. One is, although one of the elements is broken into four parts, so I'm cheating, is our four Fs. So four Fs starts with function. Uh, We're rather good at what we do. The other one is focused. We're focused on improving EBITDA across all elements of your supply chain. That's our focused approach. We're flexible. So we can have a team of one or we can have a team of five. We can focus on a large initiative. We can focus on a small one. And then the last one is fractional. And there's two elements to this, but the second one is more important than the first. The first is we can come in and do a full supply chain assessment. Or we can serve as an extra set of hands. And as a recovering client of course, I can speak to both. But I think the more important part is being fractional is that we're accountable each week. We're accountable each day to the client to make sure that we're pulling those are wise out the best that we can and that they're at the highest they can.. And the second piece I think is more important is our people. And if anybody at the office will listening to this by the off chance in the coming weeks they may be blushing. But I could not be proud of the 33 analysts, associates, vice presidents, yes, principals, but also partners. It's just a good group of people that are pragmatically focused on making things better each day. Okay. And you mentioned that the founders saw a gap in the market and what was that gap? Well, again, addressing it through the RS. It's more pragmatic. I think we don't want to talk poorly of our competitors. We want to make sure that we're highlighting our approach. We're just incredibly pragmatic. I've been with the company, as I said, just under a year, and there's been a couple of times more than more than average, I would assume where we have gone in, looked at a client's information, looked at their data, and we typically 12 months of spend, looking for opportunities, and at the end, we'll say, Yeah, you know, there's nothing here or we'll say we can save you X number of dollars, but it's going to cost you Y number of dollars and the return that's in there. Here's where it's going again as illustrations that we're just focused on making sure that our clients get the highest possible ROI. We're not in there necessarily just to stay. We're in there to make things better. I guess would be a more succinct way of putting it. Okay. And. This is the Sustainable Supply Chain podcast, Spencer. So why are you on the podcast? Well, again, it's sustainable, which I call the capital S, which is talking about the element of it, as well as the lowercase. That's for sustainable meaning what you put into place is sustained and can sustain for a while. It's going to be there for a while, so to speak. There's a gap as we've seen and I've seen personally and that approach. uh, In some cases, far too many in my mind, somebody will focus the capital S and say, listen, we want to put this on our box. Let's come up with a sustainable approach. Um, We're going to do this very briefly, or we're going to make this small change and then we can put ESG or looking at the letter of the law, so to speak, and saying, how do we go off? Oh, we only have to do those things. Okay, good. Let's just do those things. And then we can slap a badge on our box. One of my focuses on making sure that the capital is sustainable is sustainable is long term. We want to do it the right way. Uh, We want to make sure that if you go from a 24 pack or excuse me, a six pack of boxes to a 24, you're actually saving corrugated. Or that if you're reshoring, you're actually spending less fuel or using less fuel to transport your products similar to the certification within the building products industry. We want to make sure that that sustainable capital S is sustained lowercase s. And again, that goes to the fulcrum of our approach. Very good. Very good. And I mean, you've worked across, as you mentioned, a variety of industries from consumer products to manufacturing. How have you seen the conversation around sustainability evolve over the years, particularly in the supply chain space. Well, it's becoming more and more part of the conversation in the boardroom for sure. I think you know, years ago, too many years ago, I guess, it wasn't part of the conversation. You know, it was about saving money, reducing it, sourcing it in Asia, searching in China, searching it elsewhere just to make sure the bank for the buck. But as cultures develop, um, we started to have a heightened, larger focus on the capital S sustained. However, what we've seen is that becomes more of an offline conversation. Again, the conversation where you're saying, hey, listen, how do we get this CSC badge in our box or whatever the analogous label is on the box so that we can capture some element of consumers because we care. I think there was also a level of hesitation to present these things to a board member, because at the time there wasn't a strict EBITDA based return on investment. And that's evolved where you're actually doing it for in a more sustainable way, and to a large extent boardrooms are more open to it. That said, as part of this discussion is how do you make sure that you're presenting sustainable elements so that they are in fact sustainable. I think we're going to break the record for using sustainable in a conversation, by way. can we sustain question. And sustain it, right? We'll have to sustain the record but I think it goes to again, you want to make sure that you're presenting something for the long term. And that's where we're focused again. Well, this is another term hopefully we don't overuse check boxes. We're not interested in check boxing. And so there's a lot more what's the word focus on ensuring that those efforts aren't just box checking. That they're actually going to sustain and actually make a difference when it comes to the environment and otherwise. okay, funny you mentioned records because I did check out your page on the company website and it turns out that you are a former British wrestling champion from 96 if I remember correctly. Yeah. Yeah. All the way back in 1996 for sure. And the funny thing is, is I get a lot of flack because my name is Spencer Malcolm and so people will say, well, is it Malcolm? Or is it Spencer? And I went to Scotland where I thought, well, yeah. They got their stuff together. They know Malcolm's the last name. However, if you look my name up in the Great British National Wrestling Championships in 1996, they in fact did get my name wrong. It says Malcolm Spencer. So my kids tease me about it justifiably as much as they can. And does being a former wrestling champion influence your approach to tackling challenges in supply chain? Is there a bit of a wrestler's mindset on how you grapple with complex problems? Ah look, I see what you did right there. That's good. That's good. I think. I don't know necessarily about being a champion, although I'm proud of it. I think it's more along the lines of being a wrestler itself or being an athlete, focus on continuous improvement, focus on understanding that there's no finish line, right? I think the analogy I was taught earlier was you're going to run a 9.4 hundred meter dash. That's fantastic. Let's talk about running a 9.3. And when you get there, how do you do a 9.1 or Tom Brady's famous"What's your favorite Superbowl? The next one". So it's that mindset that I try to come try to bring to the table. And frankly, Forsyth tries to bring to the table as well for good or for bad, right? There's a level of intensity there. That certainly is an acquired taste. And, I mean, you mentioned earlier, capital S and small s, the difference between environmental sustainability and broader sustainability. Can you walk us through how these concepts diverge and why that distinction is crucial when developing supply chain strategies? Yeah, again, it goes it goes back to to intent. And again, a lot of these answers are going to be intertwined with themselves. So we're going to use the same language because hard solutions usually intertwine. Are you doing it for the sake of doing it, right? It goes to intent, it goes to the why, right. Simon Sinek won't use him often. But why are you doing it, is it to put a label on your box? Or is it to make a difference? Is it to hold a vendor in Asia or elsewhere, accountable to ensuring that they're taking care of the environment? That they're hiring practices are in place? That they're not causing harm? Or is it again to to be able to say that you're doing something and that's really part of I think where we come into play is when we're dealing with clients or dealing with opportunities like that is we want to make sure we're focused on the latter and not the former. Okay, very good. In your experience, what are some of the most common pitfalls companies face when trying to implement sustainable supply chain initiatives? And more importantly, how can they avoid them? Good point. I think if you're if you're working as a practitioner rather a level of functional leadership, whether it's director level or manager is you want to make sure you come armed when justifying the project, right? So we have an idea to reduce the amount of corrugated we use. That's a great idea, right? So you go from a six pack box to a 24 pack box or maybe into a larger Gaylord container, depending on what your your operational needs are. What is that going to save you? Why are you doing it? What is it going to? What is it going to do to the environment, which is the original intent of it? But also how is going to affect the business? You have to come armed with that because all good boardrooms will come with those challenges. They'll ask you why you're doing it. They'll ask you what is it going to do for the environment? And they'll ask you what's the return on the business, right? I mean, a lot of companies will make the investment necessary, but there has to be some level of ROI, whether that's in the form of higher revenue, less costs or actually, I can't think of a third one. No worries, no worries. You've talked obviously about the importance of making sure that there's value in ESG initiatives to ensure their longevity. Could you give us an example of where a company got it right and where they might have missed the mark? Yeah, so again, I'll go on to the initial the other part of the answer earlier, which is they do it wrong by not coming armed with justification, with not coming armed with the return that's going to bring a business, whether it's in the form again, higher revenue or lower cost. And as a result, it's not going to get approved. You're not going to get the necessary support from the organization, whether it's executive level or otherwise, the people that are actually doing the work, unless they understand, again, going back to the whys of what you're doing. You're not box checking. So again, if you are, here, I'll give you a prime example. If you go from a six pack corrugated to a 24 pack, you're reducing some of the corrugated. It's something like eight to nine percent. And if you go to a Gaylord, it's a significant difference. You're using less corrugated puts less VOCs into the air. Not holding your vendor accountable to doing so. Making sure that they're making that change, that they're using the right vendors, not following up, right? The whole trust and verify approach in the late 80s that was introduced in the late 80s It's not just taking that first step, which is again, justifying and getting support and getting it implemented, but also making sure that you're following up with your partners to ensure that the effort is, wait for it, sustainable And getting it right? And getting it right. Yeah. Yeah, I get the general state. We talked about a couple of times and I guess you put this in or put this out, but it's, it's, it's all about the intent. It's all about the intent. Or why are you doing it? Is it for a box? Okay, that's a different approach. Or are you doing it to actually make a difference? And that goes to everything. Again, the wrestler mentality in me. Why are you doing it? What's the intent? And then once it's in place, making sure that it's sustained. Did you just do it so that it's in place for a month? And did you do it so that it's in place for a number of years, if not decades? Right. Okay. And reshoring you mentioned as well has been a hot topic lately, especially given the global disruptions we've seen given the geopolitics. How can reshoring contribute to both supply chain resilience and sustainability and what are potential downsides? Well, how we can approach is you, is you're obviously doing less transportation and I go to the LEED certification of the building products industry again. Right? So there's less transportation. Less fuel is being used. There's less waste and environmental effects because again, less energy is being expended to move products from one to the other. The focus there though, is you want to make sure you're not going from the frying pan into the fire or is that the fire into the frying pan? Which is ensuring that when you bring it, do bring it back over to The United States or whatever, whatever domestic company you're talking about, is that you do find a partner that will continue on with the sustainable, right? There's no sense saving, saving some environmental waste in the air or elsewise into the sea, and then finding some partner that is throwing, you know, chemicals into the water once it gets placed. The other one is making sure, not just from a good partner for sustainability, but a good partner from cost. And it goes, that goes also to the sustainability of the project, is if you're going to have to pay a little bit more. That's likely fine, but if you find a partner where it's significantly higher in expense and cost, well, you may get initial support from that because it's an environmental project. But at the end of the day, those costs are going to ramp up to the point where it again, it's not sustainable from a profitability standpoint. So, the other element that people tend to get excited about is number one, it's difficult to reshore, but it's simple, right? And the difference there I put is it's, there's a lot to do and it's not easy to do, to reshore to find a new supplier to qualify your products in another location that you're more comfortable with. But it is simple. You have your criteria that you need. You have your product that you want to be made. You have your specifications for that product. You have your own internal requirements as well. And you search for a vendor that meets those qualifications. And you can be as flexible as you want in terms of hitting those qualifications that are necessary, but ultimately that's up to you. We have found the same thing and searching for particularly in Mexico and in some cases here back in the United States. It's it's a difficult job because there are a lot of moving parts. You've got everything from packaging, to product specifications, to pricing, to costing, to timing, to lead times. There's a lot to do, but if you have your specifications and everything defined up front. It's relatively simple. It's a simple step by step process that's difficult, if that makes any sense. But what if the supplier that you've settled on in Mexico is actually sourcing all of their parts from China. Again, it goes right back to what we were talking about in terms of the intent. That's where the due diligence has to come into play. That's where the due diligence has to come into play. And the other element is, and I'm sure a lot of people listening, and if in case yourself there's the old adage, which is the enemy of good is perfect, or excuse me, the enemy of better is perfect. It doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to be better. So if you find a vendor in Mexico, for example, that's still going to be sourcing products from China, but there is a path forward to find those products domestically, meaning in Mexico or more locally. That's a great start. That's actually the recommended start. And in addition to strictly from a sustainable lowercase s, is you want to make sure that you have backup plans, which is part of our entire approach to supply chain. It's your largest investment in a business. People forget that it's your largest investment. People, of course, it's the most important investment, but your largest investment financially in a business is your supply chain. And as with any large investment, you want to focus on diversifying it. So when you are reshoring and bringing in a predominant number of your products and doing it right, a very difficult task, but a simple task, when you are doing that, you want to make sure that you retain your diversification. Maybe continue to buy a smaller portion of product that your current vendor in Asia or elsewhere while ramping up. It's always important to have the diversification, which goes again, threads back into the beginning of our conversation is how do you make sure these things are in fact sustainable is you introduce that level of diversification, that level of safety, that level of caution, if you will, to the decision makers when presenting this so that you aren't, meaning you, the organization isn't out there on a limb. Fair enough. Fair enough. What metrics or KPIs should companies focus on to measure the success of their sustainability initiatives in the supply chain? And you know, how can they ensure continuous improvement? Oh, that's that's a really good question. I mean, your standard KPIs from a supply chain would be sustained, right? Would be on time. The standard OTIF on time and in full obviously the lead time parameters. Obviously, there's costing parameters. I mean, those just go to the standard supply chain metrics. PPV, right? Purchase price variance. All the supply chain people listening to this will, it'll, it'll resonate. Those are all important metrics in this, because again, you want to make sure that it's lowercase s, that's sustainable. If you introduce a partner and you're saving X number of VOC elements or you're reducing the amount of fuel, the amount of paper, the amount of waste that's being created. That's fantastic. But if their lead time is twice as long, or their costs are twice as much, or their quality is half as good, that's not going to be sustained. And again, that goes into the initial product offering the initial approach, which again, as I underlined, it's difficult, but still relatively simple. Okay. Left field question. If you could, if you could have any celebrity or fictional character, alive or dead, as a spokesperson for your sustainability initiatives or your client's sustainability initiatives, who would that be and why? Oh, I have a perfect one, but I don't remember the name. In the late nineties, there was an advertisement here in the United States for the office linebacker, the character was, I don't don't remember the name of the firm that was presenting it, but it basically talking about this new consultant that came into an office and was creating heightened productivity through his approach, and it turned out that they hired some former linebacker from the National Football League, American football, who would run around and just intimidate the heck out of the entire office to make sure that they're doing it right. I say that somewhat tongue in cheek, but it did. The point was that there was a heightened level of accountability for everybody. I forget the name of the guy, the office linebacker was the name of Tony. I believe office linebacker. I say, I say that in jest. I say that again, like I said, somewhat tongue in cheek. But again, I go back to the original point, which is accountability. It was a fun tip on making sure that businesses are accountable for continuous improvement, for doing it the right way to begin with, doing the capital S, as well as keeping an eye on the lowercase s. So again, accountability is where I come from. is why I identify that that particular character. Fair, fair, cool. With supply chains becoming more global and complex, how do you see the role of technology evolving and making these systems more sustainable? Are there any tech trends you're particularly excited about? You know, everyone is just talking about AI, which I respect. I respect the possibilities and the potential there. I think the concern overall, and I don't think I'm unique in this aspect of this concern, is AI is not the expert. Hmm. AI can make things easier. But AI should not be the place where you go for the answers. It can go where you go for information, but it's not necessarily where you should be going for the answers. And I think it over reliance on AI rather the presentation of AI as being this silver bullet Alexia, if you will, for a panacea, which is a bigger word. My dad will be proud. It's not a panacea for all things technology. The other element is again from our perspective is relatively keep it simple. Right. We're not involved in the introduction of ERP or MRP systems necessarily, although we do work with clients on how to optimize their use. But it's that simple, right? You have a warehouse of information and data, which again goes to our approach. We are data based. We're fact based in terms of how we approach these things. You have a data warehouse capturing data, everything from margins to cost to lead times, to time, to dates to to a number of different things and leveraging that data set. So I guess to answer your question, and I guess I'm getting on in years and saying this, there are opportunities to leverage technology, AI being one of them, but use it judiciously, not as an answer, but as rather as a resource and then just optimize the current resources. I mean, when you're dealing with data, which is how we roll when you're dealing with data, it doesn't need to be that that complex. Fair. Okay. And I noticed on your website, the phrase fail fast, which is often associated with innovation. How do you balance the need to innovate in sustainable practices with the risk of making costly mistakes in the supply chain? Well, again, it goes back. You mentioned that the wrestler, the athlete mentality, there's no mistakes if you learn from them. There's no costly mistakes if you learn from it. Again, that goes to who we are, and I don't mean to be a soothsayer, or a fortune cookie teller by any stretch, but we don't necessarily believe in, in mistakes as long as learnings are being taken from them. And obviously, to an extent, if you're talking about billion dollar mistakes, well, okay, that's, that's going to be a problem for you. But if you put a project together and you do so with diligence. And you do so with a number of different level of contingency plans, and you put the project or the execution of the initiative into place, and bad things happen that weren't thought about, well, okay, that stinks. But if you'd step back afterward and do what we call affectionately a post mortem, what did we learn, how could we have done better, and yes, use it the next time. Again, I think to the answer to your question hopefully more succinctly is, we're not as worried about going after and making mistakes. Because we don't call them mistakes as long as you learn from them. The bigger mistakes, the more costly ones, are the ones that you say, Oh, yeah, that didn't go well. Let's go on to the next one. You mentioned continuous improvement and the best of the best will make, will make mistakes, still make mistakes, even the best, but make sure they understand how do they learn from them? Or excuse me, what did they learn from them? Sure. Yeah. Now, given that sustainability often, hopefully requires a long term commitment. How do you advise companies to stay motivated and on track when the immediate financial returns aren't always apparent? Again, that goes to preparation. That goes to intent. You know, why are you doing it? All Right? Are you doing it for a year? Are you doing it for a flash in the pan? Or are you doing it as a long term investment, in which case, initially, poor results shouldn't matter because again, going back to the approaches, if you're having initial poor results, you're going to focus on why those results are poor. They're not what we expected. How do you make different modifications or make that modification and see what that does, and then focus on. I know this is a supply chain podcast, but that goes to general lean principles of continuous improvement. Measuring yourself, measuring the initiative, which goes to justifying the initiative. How are we going to know we're successful? What are the KPIs to borrow your phrase earlier, managing those KPIs and making adjustments over the course of time? But if you're doing it for the lowercase s, you should have those KPIs in place and then monitor. And then again, making sure you're making adjustments if and when things don't go well. And they won't. At some point over the course of a sustainability project, you'll lose a vendor or they'll say they can't do it anymore, or there'll be a new certification into place or, or, or any number of possible things. It's how you respond to those things. And now I really do sound like a wrestling coach and how the organization responds to that. Choosing the right key performance indicators, choosing the right team to make sure they're focused on making adjustments when those KPIs aren't where we need to be, as well as leadership that understands that these are long term investments with long term lowercase s sustainable returns. Fair enough. Looking ahead, what's one bit of advice you'd give to supply chain leaders who are just beginning their sustainability journey? You know, what should they prioritize to ensure they're not just checking that box, as you said earlier, but truly making a difference? Come armed with preparation when presenting the initiative. Come armed, right? It's not just we're going to do this because the environment is good. We talked about it earlier in the conversation. Come armed with data as to how this is going to make your organization better. That's the first one. The second one is, again, supply chain being the largest investment a business has. The most important one being people. I want to make sure I say that again, but the largest financial investment is your supply chain, diversify, which is two meetings. One is diversify the potential vendor setting. So you'll have want somebody here. You'll want a vendor over here because of all the issues that are going on. But frankly, again, because it's your largest single investment, but also diversify from the standpoint of execution, contingency planning, asking yourself a series of what if questions, not just the why questions, but the, what if. Okay, we have this plan in place. And if everything's goes great, here's what's going to happen. Ask the, what if, what if this happens? What if there's a port closure? What if there's a fire? What if an entire region of a country gets shut down? What if there's a war, right? You can't think of all the contingencies, but you can certainly think of a top five or top ten that you can plan for and prepare for that and trigger in case one of those things do events. Two great, great, great pieces of the recipe to sustainability. If we move into the future. We're now in 2030. What do you think is one trend in supply chain sustainability that will have taken the industry by storm? You can already see inklings of it to an extent. And I'll, I'll pat myself on the back for bringing it up earlier in the conversation. True diversity, and I'm using lowercase d here. True diversity in supply is an understanding that you can't be over reliant on one region because stuff happens. Insert other word for stuff. Because stuff happens, and you need to be prepared. And there's a return on making that. So I would suggest 10 years ago, 11 years ago a supply chain professional would go to leadership and say, listen, we've got this great vendor in Asia. Our costs are fantastic. I've benchmarked them. It looks good. I think we should go look at somewhere in elsewhere in Asia or somewhere in Europe or somewhere on another continent to make sure. You likely would have been told you're crazy. Please stop talking, go sit down and go back to your work. But now there's a better appreciation for the need for that diversity. So that stuff happens in one region, you're covered in the other region. Or if something happens to one type of transportation, you've covered with another type of transportation. If costs go up in one realm, you're prepared because these costs will go down in another realm. There's a better heightened appreciation for that level of diversity. And yeah, the pandemic had a heck of a lot to do with that. Absolutely. But. And I've all supply chain professionals listening will know this, our supply chain guys, we've known that for years, decades even, some would say centuries, but it's the rest of the organization that's catching up. Cool. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now, is there any question that I didn't ask Spencer that you wish I did or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to think about? No, I think we got it all, Tom. I appreciate the conversation and the questions were answered. Hopefully I was a clear and concise in the answers. Great. Spencer, if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them? Sure. Go to Forsyth Advisors and that's F O R S Y T H advisors, A D V I S O R S dot com. And my personal email is smalcolm, S M A L C O L M, also at ForsytheAdvisors. com. And of course the website of the British Wrestling Association. Yes, where they got my name wrong. All right. I wish somebody from that organization would reach out because my kids are just teasing the hell out of me. Great. Spencer, that's been really interesting. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. Great, thanks for the invitation. Hopefully the building of the relationship right here. Thank you. Okay. Thank you all for tuning into this episode of the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast with me, Tom Raftery. Each week, thousands of supply chain professionals listen to this show. If you or your organization want to connect with this dedicated audience, consider becoming a sponsor. You can opt for exclusive episode branding where you choose the guests or a personalized 30 second ad roll. It's a unique opportunity to reach industry experts and influencers. For more details, hit me up on Twitter or LinkedIn, or drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com. Together, let's shape the future of sustainable supply chains. Thanks. Catch you all next time.