George Wade: 0:03

They sell a lot of volume. They've been asked for that data into their emissions. We actually realised that the kilogram CO2e per litre, was 0.77 kilograms CO2. So what that meant was that just by proxy of measuring their emissions, they actually help people like Tesco, and Waitrose, and Sainsbury's by giving them a 67% reduction in their emissions for the products that they buy

Tom Raftery: 0:28

Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode 51 of the sustainable supply chain podcast. Today's episode is very generously sponsored by MDSI, provider of industry leading IT solutions with a sustainable edge. My name is Tom Raftery and with me on the show today, I have my special guest, George. George, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

George Wade: 0:48

Yeah, absolutely. Hi, Tom. Thank you very much for having me. My name is George. I'm co founder of a company called Zevira. We help companies measure, reduce and report on their emissions. And the most important part of that is that we work with people that have really complex supply chains. So consumer goods, manufactured goods companies. And that's what I, love doing and helping, helping brands understand how they can unlock the data to be able to tell a better story around sustainability and ultimately the key thing being to reduce their emissions. But yeah, thanks for having me, Tom.

Tom Raftery: 1:18

Great. Yeah. And tell me, how did you get into this, George?

George Wade: 1:22

my story into, carbon accounting, I think is it's quite interesting because it was something that I never knew about before. And. I was working in the waste industry and I was working with companies on helping them reduce their waste and ultimately trying to get things in the right bin. And it was actually during lockdown and during COVID, I made all my money in my previous company through bins being collected. And ultimately trying to do that during COVID was quite hard because no bins were being collected, at least on, trade premises. So I basically got told by my boss, Hey, if you want to keep a job, you kind of need to find a new source of revenue. So I ended up working on a lot of consultancy projects through the circular economy, and that was what our company was all about was how do we prevent waste and more about flow of resources. And one thing that I was working on was the University of Exeter project and actually working with their team on carbon accounting. And I was doing the waste element of making change and using the data from the carbon side to create change. And for me, the, kind of journey into carbon was that I realised that they had this big system and it was really archaic and actually they were spending loads of time on trying to get data that was better, but actually I found it really difficult as someone that's very action orientated to then go into, uh, I guess an organisational structure and a system in terms of carbon accounting at the time that was so related around how on earth do we get the data in, in the right place and ultimately found that if there was 10 hours to spend, nine hours was spent on data and discussions around data and one hour was on actual action. And for me, I, I was like, well, hold on a minute. I've got a load of SME clients that I can sell, carbon accounting to when I go back to my job. What solution is there out there for me, that I could go and try and find and sell to them? Because evidently this is not a system that works very well. So my journey really came into the discovery of what solutions on the market and this is 2020 and the you know there wasn't the tools like ourselves out there now and you know there's a number of carbon accounting tools and management tools out there now. But the time there really wasn't smart ways to measure your emissions, especially in that mid sized market as well. So my journey really came into it as an outsider of trying to understand what's possible. And I think the final thing that actually made me go wow, I'm all in on on trying to realise that this is actually where I can have the biggest impact on the planet in my personal career, and life is that I was focused on waste, and when I went through the data on waste, actually you’re talking about a very small percentage of emissions being created at the waste stage and actually I use this example a lot, I was working with companies that were talking about pallet wrap around a pallet of products, and they were so focused on the pallet wrap. when you look into the data, you actually realise that it's the products within that pallet wrap, which is the cause of the problems that we have in terms of emissions.

Tom Raftery: 4:25

Right.

George Wade: 4:25

And that's the bit where I was like, right, okay, how do we uncover those invisible emissions, which is actually kind of the role that I think carbon accounting plays is in covering those visible emissions in a company supply chain. And yeah, basically from that point onwards, I was like, I can't work in waste anymore. I need to work where I can have the biggest impact.

Tom Raftery: 4:44

Okay, and so talk to me about the setup of Zavero.

George Wade: 4:50

Yeah, absolutely. So we are a team that are now global. So myself and my co founder, Ben who I met through the, my journey of discovering carbon accounting tools who was a carbon accountant. We started the company in 2021 officially. We were working on it in 2020, but we didn't know how to file our own company's house until 2021. That's the, the form hit the formation year officially. And we built that company for three years or so. And we were actually acquired by another organisation early in February, which is we've gone from two to four kind of founders. And now we have a global makeup. So originally Ben and myself, UK focus, we have clients across the world, but our focus was UK, Europe, a bit of North America. But now we're in a fantastic position where we have, I've got a team in Singapore and a team in Japan and then employees, you know, in Australia and New Zealand and North America as well. So it's a really fantastic journey that we've been on and as a company, I'm really proud that we're, global actually solving a global problem as well, which I think is the most important thing. And you know, there's lots of context between exports from Asia to the UK that we can be an incredible, Europe even we can be incredibly good at solving. But yeah, the makeup is changed a lot in the last three or four years is what I'd say So,

Tom Raftery: 6:06

Sure, sure, sure. And what would you say has surprised you most in your journey from being back then in waste to now being in a global company solving a global problem?

George Wade: 6:20

Yeah, that's a good question. I'd say. Yeah. On the surprise, actually, I would say the, how quickly that people can buy into understanding what they need to do. And I think I talk about it a lot as I had that aha moment where I was like, I can't work in trying to remove plastic pallet wrap. I need to work on how do I help people understand that same conundrum I had. And I think seeing the change from when we have people that we're working with go from being. I have no idea about this to two, three years later as customers and they're speaking at sustainability events and the driving innovation and change within their organisation. I think for me, that's almost surprised me how quickly people can start to grapple with their data and start to actually create change that, you know, you maybe don't see it organisations where you have archaic systems, et cetera. So for me, that's the most interesting and also the most powerful. I think for, I feel proud of the work that we get to do.

Tom Raftery: 7:23

Nice. And how do you go from a startup that was just incorporated in 2021 to a global company by the end of 24?

George Wade: 7:35

A lot of hard work, perseverance, and a lot of look I'd say, but I think main thing really has been that we've always listened to our customers. So within, this market, as, as we know, and everyone knows that listening to this, that there are a lot of solution providers, there are a lot of tools that are out there, but there's also a lot of challenges with some of those as well. So I think for us, what we've done a very good job of is going back to the fundamentals of actually making sure we measure emissions really, really accurately, doing it in the easiest possible way. And then from there, speaking to our customers about not just building features that everybody else might have, but actually features that are of value to customers or trying to understand their challenges rather than building something and sell it to them. So I think for me, that's listening to our customers and, understanding the problems that we solve and how we, create the, the solution has been the number one biggest thing for, for us ultimately. But yeah, there's a, lot of look and a lot of a lot of steps along the way.

Tom Raftery: 8:35

And what market segment are you addressing?

George Wade: 8:40

Yeah, that's a really good question. I guess the right now and over the last three years, what we've been really focused on initially was how do we work with someone that will give us money? That was the first thing that Ben and I tried to do, you know as a startup we went What on earth? Yeah, I I think so. I think so who's gonna pay us money and how do we scale it? And then we quickly realised actually that we need to create something where we have value across every customer that we work with. So we've worked over the last three years, predominantly with consumer goods companies, FMCG, manufactured goods. So it can be anyone from drinks brands, confectionery, cleaning products et cetera, but then we also work with organisations that have large amount of their emissions from their supply chain and service based industries. So it's, it's a slightly different problem, but it's actually the same sort of challenge that they're facing is how do they get great data? So if you work with a creative agency, how do you understand the emissions of flights and how do you make interventions of changes to, to reduce the impact of those? So whilst I wouldn't want to say that we're industry agnostic, we work best with companies that are manufactured goods and ultimately buy products produce a good and sell it. We, we also do a great job for service based agencies as well. So service based companies, sorry. So we end up with a really good mix of clients, but ultimately they all share that same common problem, which is that they've got a lot of supply chain emissions. They maybe don't have a lot of control over those emissions in the sense of, you know, it's not their factories, et cetera, et cetera. And that ultimately that they want to be able to get better ways to reduce their emissions by having a more accurate kind of streamlined process for that data collection.

Tom Raftery: 10:24

Okay. And are you enabling people to measure and report scope three as well as scope one and two?

George Wade: 10:34

Absolutely. Yeah, that's the biggest thing that for us. I mean, we've literally got some companies that don't have any scope one and two emissions. All the way through to, yeah, I mean, you know, they they work out of a, a leased office. They have everything is basically within their supply chain. So for us, that's the bit that we do very well. And I think that that's also, you know, that shared problem across a number of different industries. It could be you're a pet food supplier, or you could be a a chemical company. Ultimately, you're going to have a lot of your emissions come from, supply chains. And, and that's the bit that we've, we've found to work very well. And the systems that we have and the processes that we've built have, I've serviced that market the best, essentially. Scope one or two is easy. I yeah, it's, you know, it can be complex, but realistically, relatively easy. Yeah, exactly.

Tom Raftery: 11:22

So if I am a small services based company working out of a leased office and most of my emissions are in my supply chain, how do I gather and report those? Because they're not mine, not my data.

George Wade: 12:11

Yeah. So it's a really good question. And and I guess just on that, that's the type of company, which I think in terms of the sophistication of the solution that you need. We do really well for those, you know, really complex supply chain and consumer goods. But if you think about as a, let's say I'm a creative agency with 25 people in an office, I'm based in London. So let's just say we have an office in London. Getting that data. It seems like a really hard task, but it's actually relatively simple. There will be data often now with through your offices as part of, you know, your, if you go and ask them, well, Hey, what were the average kilowatt hours per square meter or for my office or whatever it might be? So that's, that's just one part of the puzzle on collecting that data. But any provider that you work with, that's good, should be able to give you averages if that's not as possible and use it as a recommendation for next year. And then when it comes to that supply chain data, you know, realistically for service based providers, it's, do you track asset registers and, you know, things like laptops and things, which are going to be a big source of your physical quantity emissions. But then it's actually about how do you get data from how much you spend, which I don't advocate for spend based emissions for anything other than basically services. So you're never going to be able to do physical quantity for things like Facebook ad spend or whatever it might be, but actually that's where we integrate with really great tools where we do spend based emission factors using company reported data. So, Facebook, Google, everybody reports on there as emissions to CDP and SBTI. So instead of using industry averages, effectively, it's about working with your suppliers to understand what's actually who has set targets to reduce their impact and what are the goals that they're going on so that you can understand that journey. But yeah, we've, we've got some great tools that we integrate with that basically allow us to pull that, that information. And interesting fact, actually Salesforce, I think it is because they measure and report their emissions, Salesforce's emissions compared to the average about 99.8% percent lower than, than the average figure. And that's purely because I have obviously how averages work, but the fact that it just shows the importance of you measuring your emissions. Because then you can actually understand that, okay, even if we're using proxies, we are lower than, than average, et cetera. That's, that's kind of the, I think the most important thing from that is that the journey that you go on as a if you take that example as a small company, it doesn't have to be all at once. There are easy tools available to collect that data. It's not that big of a task if you have the right processes and the right partner to, deal with that as well. Don't sit there and think, oh my gosh, it's so scary. I can't do this. Just think about, okay, what's the first step and how do we make progress and what's, what's the initial parts that we can, we can do rather than not doing anything effectively.

Tom Raftery: 15:04

Okay, and if I am that small, 25 person, organi sation in a leased office, how can I afford a solution that, is going to report on emissions for me? I mean, it's, is it the case that I can pass that cost on to my customers who are probably demanding it anyway that I report, or is it just a cost of doing business, is it something that's going to give me competitive advantage, or do I just have to do it because regulations because customers or you know where are people in that kind of spectrum?

George Wade: 15:43

Yeah, it's it's a good question. I think in terms of this if we take this example 25 people, small company, service based offices is really around who do you service and what's the value that that would bring to them. You know, you look at the rise of B Corp and things like that is, it's actually a really good framework for you to operate in. So I do think that there are a lot of free tools and a lot of free solutions and frameworks that you can work through before you have to pay any money to people like me. Those, you know, those sides of companies, I, I don't think that you have to necessarily spend money to make progress often with, with this sort of stuff, which obviously is the, the honesty that I would prefer to share rather than say, yeah, come and speak to me and I'll, I'll tell you all of the great reasons we can, we can work together, but actually it's a case of, I think that the real driver for this is it is becoming a, almost a hygiene factor in the way that companies assess operations. If we're we're wanting to look for a new web developer or wanting to look for an SEO agency or whatever it might be like for us as a company, we'll try and always advocate for B Corp or organisations or, or whatever it might be. Do have companies that have actively look to reduce their emissions or making change? So I think that that becomes an increasingly important process where you do have customers that are asking for this and it does become a cost of doing business, but I don't think you need to have the same level of data complexity and also decarbonisation, as you know, a Meta or a or a bigger organisation. It's actually just about what's right for you and do you, can you position yourself in in a way that allows you to, to showcase why it's important for you and why you care about this, rather than it just being a tick box exercise, which I don't think anyone's really going to kind of believe long term is the the reason they'd want to work with you, for example.

Tom Raftery: 17:31

Right, right and if you're saying it's reasonably easy to collect that data, then what are the actual challenges that the companies you're working with? What are the main challenges that they're coming up against?

George Wade: 17:45

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, maybe just to, to go back on that, that those companies that are 25 people in an office, a service based agency are not the people that we work with. We work with, the largest independent creative agency in the world, which there's 1500 employees, but they actually face kind of similar problems. We work with maybe 25 people in an office, but they sell tens of millions pounds worth of products because they're a product based company that outsource their production for example. So that's like just a, point to note there. And ultimately, when it comes to those challenges and the way that you collect that data and that process, I think, for us, where we've done a very, very good job is integrating with ERP systems. So if we think about it as you actually, for most companies, they already have the data that they need to calculate emissions. And obviously, there's a it's very complex, but realistically, you're all you're doing is timesing an activity that you do as a business, with an emission factor. It's relatively simple. The activity might be that you are buying 10,000 aluminum cans for a soft drink company, or it might be that you're taking a business class flight from the UK to New York because you're going to go and sell products in New York. So really it's around what data do you have within your systems? And how do we get that? And that's what I think I talked about earlier, that for scope three, we've done a great job of. It's actually recognising that there is the simple formula is how do we get the data you already have in your system into our system so we can understand how to calculate the emissions. And I think that that's the kind of the most important thing that you don't have to necessarily always reinvent the wheel. It's just about, right, this is what we've got. Maybe we lack in certain areas. Most companies don't track business travel very well because they all track how much money they spent on it. They won't track where they flew to and from and how many kilometers it was. So you just do that over time and you add those layers of additional data collection in. And, and that's the bit that we, we help companies with and we find to do really well.

Tom Raftery: 19:47

Okay, do you have any customer success stories you can speak to, X company, to your point, like, with Salesforce, where they have got down 99% or they're 99% lower than their peers? Any, any kind of similar data that you can share about some of your customers.

George Wade: 20:05

Yeah, absolutely. We we're very fortunate enough that we've had a number of success stories from our clients, which is always, great to have. I think one that I, think is really interesting, from the product based companies that we work with. We work with a fantastic drinks brand in the UK called Jubel. They produce a peach lager, which is inspiration from the Alps. Interestingly enough, I actually used to drink their beer at university because they went to the same university as me, did the founders, and I was on the Surf society team. And they used to say, Hey, George, let me give you a load of beer so that you can give it to surf members. And I was like, yes, please. I will do that. So they have, they've really filled me with joy for the last 10 years of my life. Not just the last three years of my life. With them, we've been working with them for, for, three years or so now. So more or less since we kind of started. And success story number one from them was that they were using somebody else before. They were going, they would used a consultancy. They didn't actually measure any of their, product based emissions. Cause they, again, the outsourced, some of that. And ultimately what we decided was that we worked with them for them to realise that that's not an accurate reflection of their emissions. So number one, we measured their emissions with, accuracy, granular detail. And we did that easily through simple tools like bulk upload features and be able to do matching but also through different integrations and things like that. That's always an incredibly good thing when we can show people that the change from what it used to be like, to what it's like now. And we have a number of those stories, but I think the second part for Jubel and the reason why I really liked that as a success story is that it kind of leads back to what we've discussed. And a lot of companies are really concerned about, Oh, well, we need to measure emissions and what if we're good or not good, or if we start talking about this, we might not actually be doing very well. Well with Jubel, they've been asked to report this data into big supermarkets here in the UK.

Tom Raftery: 22:05

Okay.

George Wade: 22:05

They sell a lot of volume. They've been asked for that data into their emissions. We actually realised that the kilogram CO2e per litre, was 0.77 kilograms CO2. So what that meant was that just by proxy of measuring their emissions, they actually help people like Tesco, and Waitrose, and Sainsbury's by giving them a 67% reduction in their emissions for the products that they buy. So I think for me as a small organisation that you know, they were 10 people when they started working with us. They've got around 50 people now. They've actually made a really good journey. And they've had a lot of value from that get go and being able to provide that number to the supermarkets who then can say, well, great. If we buy Jubel versus competitor B, which is maybe not even as good, we're also going to have 67% fewer emissions. So we're going to increase our order by 20%. So I think that those sorts of stories of where data has allowed people to communicate the change that they can make and the benefit of purchasing their product versus the alternative, I think is something that I really enjoy because that's the, you know, going back to the beginning, it's how do we use the data? Not only to to help understand where our impact comes from and how we can reduce it. That's the most important part. But it's also how you can communicate the value that you're bringing to to your buyers and to your customers effectively. Yeah, that's that's maybe one of many Tom. If we had more time, I could get into into the details of many more.

Tom Raftery: 23:32

But to that point as well, when people do start on that measurement journey, have you any examples that you can share either with a named company or not of companies who have looked at their data and gone, Oh, my gosh, we've got that much emissions in that space. Let's tackle that.

George Wade: 23:51

Yeah, it's a really good question. We've had couple actually. There's a couple where we've been able to turn really complex scope, three, data processes into really simplified, which has helped them go, oh, okay, not only is that easier to measure every year, but we can actually track that going forward. And we know that while we had proxies last year, our emissions are much more clear now. So that's, that's an example. We just had with a client that has essentially 20 million records that we've analysed from their purchases. And being able to actually granularly work out where those emissions come from. And for them, interestingly enough, a big source of their emissions actually came from the, this, they sell effectively a hydration tablets. And they sell water bottles, like stainless steel water bottles so that you can refill you know, your bottles. But one of the biggest source of emissions is that they produce those bottles themselves. And it's stainless steel, but actually it's, that's a big source of emissions, but is that a problem? Because whilst they can decarbonise it's what's the alternative? People buying hundreds of bottles in that process. So that's one thing that we found very interesting. You can uncover with the data that sometimes the biggest source of your emissions is something you need to tackle, but it's also part of the success of you as a company. So that's one that I found very interesting. And I think one other one, which I I'll come back to another brewery. Which we do have lots of different clients, but those are two really good case studies. We worked with a client who outsourced production of their beer to Scotland. They're London based, they sell most of their beer in London, but it was cheaper to produce in Scotland. Now, the problem with that is that on average about 15% of companies that we work with have their emissions from their transportation, in terms of getting their product from factory to customers. But when we did the data, we actually realised that they had about 25% of their emissions come from the transportation. And that is because they were shipping water beer down from Scotland to sell locally. Now, what we were able to do, which I think is the most important part of that is they went to that brewery in Scotland because they were a little bit more cost effective, but they also have great sustainability credentials that they were kind of outweighed by the shipping. So what they actually did was they found a really great brewer in Sussex. Where they produce the beer there instead. And then they ship more locally to the regions that they sell to. So I think that that's just a couple of examples where what we've been able to do is use that data to tell a really good story and to, really make, change and create change. Yeah, it's, it's genuinely phenomenal for, for me and my co founder to be able to be provide a solution that allows companies to actually do that I think is is awesome. It's really cool to see

Tom Raftery: 26:39

Okay. and we often focus on carbon reduction as an environmental necessity, which obviously it is. But are there any surprising non environmental business benefits that companies have experienced through this journey? Maybe a boost in unexpected areas like team morale or even creative innovation?

George Wade: 26:59

Yeah, I think one thing there's there's obviously a number of different ways that climate is is great and taking action and reductions. I think that when you bring people on that journey that's first first and foremost, so your team itself that you already have buying into the idea that you're a great company to work for is obviously a fantastic thing. And as I now have a team of 50 people around the world, I realise having a happy team is really important and it's also quite expensive. Right. You know, you've got to make sure that everyone's happy. So we're very fortunate. We have a great purpose for people to get behind. So be able to give that to other companies I think, I think is fantastic. There are a number of different things not just on that, I guess, that employee retention, but actually attraction. And I can't tell you the amount of people that we get apply for the roles that we advertise. Because they want to be part of a company that's, you know, making a change. So I think that that's one area. And then there are a number of different things in terms of, you know, there will be cost drivers and people effectively be able to make changes that save them money. And especially when it comes to energy, right? If you're one of the companies that we, we work with, quite a lot of them have around 15, 20% of scope one and two emissions. If we can work with them understanding how they can reduce their energy consumption, you know, they're saving money first and foremost, as their emissions are coming down. So, yes, everything from, you know, employee retention, employee hiring cost savings, and then just general, I think, from a sales perspective. When you have those things combined and together, you have a motivated team and you have a passionate group of people, you can talk about this stuff with real belief and conviction, rather than saying, yeah, we've ticked a box and we've carbon offset 10% of our emissions or things like that. But yeah, there are, there are many benefits. It's what keeps me getting up every day and telling the story that we, we do.

Tom Raftery: 28:46

Fantastic, and what metrics or KPIs should companies focus on to measure the success of their initiatives, and ensure continuous improvement?

George Wade: 28:56

Yeah, that's just a really good question. I actually think I'm going to break that down into two different types of company because there'll be companies or people in this that are listening to it who are in fast growth companies where their emissions are actually going rise year on year. So, science based targets, everything like that, they've all been built for big organisations. That fundamentally does not work for fast growing organisations because with science based targets, if you are a big organisation, let's say you're a Unilever or a Procter Gamble, you should absolutely be measuring emissions on an absolute basis. And you should be making, you know, 5% year on year reductions in line with science based targets. But if you're a company that's growing at 300% a year, you're not going to be able to grow on an absolute basis. So I think that in terms of KPIs, we have to think about it slightly differently. Now we often look to implement emission intensity metrics. Which I understand also are the problem that I have with that is that you're still actually producing more emissions into the atmosphere, but then, so it's, you know, it's a challenge because, but then what's the other consideration? Everybody shuts down and we don't sell any more products. And actually, if you think about some of the great customers that we work with, especially in that innovation space, water hydration companies that are able to substitute the need to buy Coca Cola by replacing it, replacing it with hydration droplets, which are lighter, which are cheaper to transport and fewer emissions on transportation, but then they also remove the need for single use plastic bottles. Now, actually the success of those companies will bring down the overall impact that we have on the planet. So sometimes it's slightly different and you can think about it as a mission intensity metrics first and foremost for growth companies. But then is it really, what is it that you're trying to achieve and what's the true mission? We have some, another example, we have a fantastic group of companies that sell canned wine. Now, wine in a bottle, phenomenal. Everybody, you know, a glass of wine, fantastic. But actually what, what's really interesting as a packaging format, glass, the ship from, let's say, New Zealand or Chile or wherever it is, it's really heavy. And there's a lot of emissions associated with that. You know, the innovation of wine in a can and things like that. It's not only the packagings for your emissions, but then you also think about the fact that, I mean, for me, I'm a, I'm a lightweight, I'll have one glass of wine and I'll be asleep basically, if I'm you know, having a glass of wine on a Friday, night and the other rest of the bottle I end up using the last third of it basically for cooking always because it's gone not so good. That's, that's a typical routine for, for me, I'll open a bottle of wine, have one glass, maybe have the second one on a Saturday. And then by the end of the week, I don't need any more. And it's gone bad. So the innovation that by selling more of your products, you can actually reduce things like food waste and and the production of wine that's going to waste. So I think that there can be really specific things that customers, and, and businesses and organisations can track, which are outside of the typical, what have you reduced your scope one and two emissions by. For me, I find that really interesting because it points to a more of a purpose, you know, based organisation of, of what matters to you. Yeah, those, those sorts of stories and communication and, and, and things is something that I, I love doing. So if there's, you know, if there's people listening that want to understand how it actually applies to them, I will gladly use my calendar and time to, to make sure that I can think about what those KPIs are for you. And, and ultimately how the measurement part will allow you to, to do that, Cause that's the most important thing there as well. Right. You can't set and track and run these KPIs without actually doing that data collection first.

Tom Raftery: 32:46

Yeah, where where's all this going? You know where, where's this industry going to go in the next 5, 10 years?

George Wade: 32:52

Yeah, it's a really, really great question. I think there is a lot of, there's been a lot of tools, as we all know, in the last five, six years. And I think that we're starting to see, and we've seen a lot in the market, that naturally the cream rises to the top and that the people that are doing a really, really good job with a, I think a forward looking future. So for us, we've always thought about how do we work with companies to 2030 to 2040? That's the business that we want to be in. We don't want to be in a business that effectively does a really good job for two years, and then we're effectively out of business because we've sold somebody offsets that are not very good or whatever it might be. So I think that where we're seeing is fewer number of people. But operating in more niche roles. So we work with some really great industries, you know, in that consumer goods, manufactured goods sector. And I think that we have a lot of knowledge that we can share. We've got 50, 60 people that are basically the same supply chain set up. And we can share, you know, knowledge and we can share resources between them and ultimately share ways to reduce their emissions. So I think that that's one route that we're going to go down is smaller number of people doing a better job for the target audience. And then I think that we're also going to start to see a lot more communication between organisations. So, we have a Product Carbon Footprint tool. We believe strongly in that as a future tool, mainly for that collaboration between companies. As I mentioned, that Jubel example, people want to know what your emissions are, and you, maybe you don't need to do an Oatly and put it on your packaging, but you need to be able to communicate something. Your number now and that journey over time to, to, your buyers. And I think that things like the PACT framework are going to be incredibly, incredibly useful for sharing that data and, and ultimately having a way to have better people in more tailored industries so that people have great resources that're fit for them, but also more data sharing and communication between organisations and I think Carbon Accounting Alliance, another example of where that's been phenomenal as an organisation for them to put that together.'Cos, at the minute you can't compare apples and apples with a lot of the stuff that happens in carbon accounting and it makes it really challenging, even for us as a service provider, right? Because we can't actually say to somebody, yeah, your emissions are 25% lower than this person's because we don't know what the other person's measured. And we don't know whether they've missed out so critically important things that we would important to measure. So, I think that there's, those are kind of two, two projections is that it is going to be clear on who, who there is in the market and who they serve. And then ultimately on how we collaborate more as a market and between everyone as well because that's the bit that will get us to net zero. It's the shared, you know, shared journey that we're all on ultimately.

Tom Raftery: 35:49

And allowing companies to compare apples to apples as it were

George Wade: 35:54

Exactly, exactly. Your Granny Smith to your Braeburn and not your Granny Smith to your pears, basically. There you go.

Tom Raftery: 36:02

Quick left field question. question. If you could have any person, or character, alive or dead, real or fictional, as a spokesperson for carbon accounting, responsible carbon accounting, who would it be, and why?

George Wade: 36:22

That's a really good question. I'm gonna say I'm, my temptation there is go with someone like a voice of command, like a David Attenborough, or somebody like that. But I think that a lot of those people exist. I'm actually gonna go for a, a slightly left field answer and not because I think that I necessarily agree with everything they say, but actually because I think that it will be more uniting, people together around it. And I'm actually going to say someone like Elon Musk, because whilst, whilst he's I don't necessarily agree with this politics just to put that out there, but I actually think that if you think about someone that's an innovator, someone that has a really great sense of how do we solve a problem? And then you combine that with, I guess, like the, right wing non net zero agenda, it might actually bring people together rather than just speaking to the same, same audience. Yeah. I wouldn't go as far as saying Donald Trump to be the spokesperson of carbon accounting, I would at least say that maybe it's somebody that can bring the group of everyone that believes whether this is right or wrong and ultimately bring those people together. So yeah, politics aside from it, I think that that's my, that's my answer.

Tom Raftery: 37:36

Great, great, great. Ok, we are coming towards the end of the podcast now George, is there any question I did not ask that you wish I did, or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it is important for people to think about?

George Wade: 37:51

Not necessarily. I just think that from, from the perspective of the listener, I think, you know, we, I talk a lot for me, we we've talked about it quite a bit but, It's how do we make sure that people understand that it's a journey that they're about to go on, and the answers that they they need don't happen in the first first year. And it is that journey between now and 2030 and 2040 And having someone that can help you understand instead of being almost in your mind manic of, Oh my gosh, we need to make loads of change. We need to solve all these problems. It's actually quite fundamental how we can break it down and start to see what's possible now, what's possible next and what's possible in the future. And I think for me, not only does data help you do that, but having great people that you can surround yourself, whether it's a carbon partner like ourselves as Zevero, but also whether it's people in your industry. That will help you go actually, that was really hard for us to do. We're not able to do it now. I think that's the bit that the message that I always want to make clear is that we want to be the people for that journey and that that journey is not overnight. It wouldn't be, we wouldn't have a problem if sustainability was easy is what I would say. So that's the, the main thing for me is really just that I think there's a lot of stress, a lot of burnout in this industry. And I think that for a lot of people, they need to realise that it's, it is not just all on them to do in the first year, but no, it's been, it's been great chatting Tom.

Tom Raftery: 39:23

Yeah, likewise, likewise. If people George would like to know more about yourself, or any of the things we discussed here today where would you have me direct them?

George Wade: 39:29

Yeah, absolutely. Zevero. earth is our website. hopefully it'll be in show notes, but, another area where I, I would always plug people visit is I call myself an ardent climate optimist I write a blog every two weeks called the grumpy optimist essentially sharing why we have hope and faith left in in the planet and and the challenges that we can solve. If people want to communicate with me via through Zevero through linkedin. And also I I will always subtly plug, the blog because it is a labor of love sometimes my sunday sunday afternoons and evenings recapping two weeks of positive climate news is something that I want other people to enjoy as much as as much as I do.

Tom Raftery: 40:09

Nice. Great. I'll put a link to those in the show notes, George. So everyone has access to them. Super

George Wade: 40:14

Thank you

Tom Raftery: 40:15

That's been fantastic. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

George Wade: 40:19

Absolutely. Tom. Thanks for having me.

Tom Raftery: 40:21

Okay. Thank you all for tuning into this episode of the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast with me, Tom Raftery. Each week, thousands of supply chain professionals listen to this show. If you or your organization want to connect with this dedicated audience, consider becoming a sponsor. You can opt for exclusive episode branding where you choose the guests or a personalized 30 second ad roll. It's a unique opportunity to reach industry experts and influencers. For more details, hit me up on Twitter or LinkedIn, or drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com. Together, let's shape the future of sustainable supply chains. Thanks. Catch you all next time.