There is so many applications for AI that we will see in our space that, that we can't even imagine yet. And so I think the embracing of AI being able to understand this technology and building quick business cases and pilots is gonna be important for our space because I, do believe it is the next great disruptor. And and we're gonna see a lot of innovation that's gonna come of it particularly around sustainability and energy use. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to episode 63 of the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast, the number one show focusing exclusively on the intersection of sustainability and supply chains. I'm your host, Tom Raftery, and I'm thrilled to have you here today. A huge thank you to this podcast's, amazing supporters. You make this podcast possible, and if you'd like to join this community, support starts at just three euros or dollars a month, which is less than the price of a cup of coffee, and you'll find the link in the show notes of this or any episode, or by visiting tiny url.com/sscpod. Now, you know how every company these days is setting bold net zero targets, but then quietly panicking 'cause they've no idea how to actually get there. Well, Paige Janson is the person they call when that panic sets in. She's the one helping some of the world's biggest companies turn messy utility bills, vague climate goals, and scattered spreadsheets into real decarbonisation strategies that actually work. She's been doing this for nearly two decades at Engie Impact and now leads their Sustainable Resource Management division. So if you've ever wondered how companies go from, we should be greener to actually cutting emissions, tracking Scope three and surviving regulatory chaos. You're going to love today's conversation. Before that, stay tuned because in upcoming episodes, I'm gonna be talking to Rhea Rakshit, who's the VP of Product Management at Sayari. Jen Chew, who's head of Solutions and consulting at Bristlecone JF Gange, who's Chief Strategy and Product Officer at Pendulum, and Don Weatherby, who's CEO of Regen X. But back to today's show, and as I said, my special guest today is Paige. Paige, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself? yes, happy to do so, Tom. And thank you for having me. My name Paige I'm the CEO of the Sustainable Resource Management Division at Engie Impact, and very glad to be here Okay. And what is Engie Impact and the division that you're now CEO of? Yes. So, Engie Impact is a corporation that is part of the larger Engie group that was really established to help large global companies accelerate their decarbonisation strategies. So Engie Impact operates in many countries around the world helping these corporations be able to use data-driven decision making to set strategies in order to help achieve decarbonisation goals. The Sustainable Resource Division of Engie Impact is really the, foundation of that data management activity also encompassed with a group of advisors. That helped support clients on a number of resource categories around electric, gas, water, waste and other kinds of things that contribute to carbon. So very happy to be here and talk a bit more about the, company. Okay, great. And before we get into that, could you just give me a little bit of your origin story? You know, how did you get to be the CEO of Engie Impact's Sustainable Resource Division? Yes. So I've been with the company over 19 years. I actually started with the company in an entry level client service. role helping a very large telecommunications company manage their energy spend. And really got into the financial planning aspects of that. So helping them manage a very large budget when it came to energy volatility And, worked my way up on the delivery and operations side, launched our carbon and our waste offerings. And then quickly moved over to our client management and our sales organisation, eventually becoming the Chief Commercial Officer. And then Engie launched Engie impact in 2019. And at that time I took the role of the Chief Operating Officer for a little over five years. And so I've played a variety of different roles inside the organisation, have a lot of experience when it comes to data, advising, helping clients achieve their goals and then ultimately helping drive the strategy for SRM Sustainable Resource Management. So, yeah, I've had a, a very good career here. Fantastic. And what would you say has surprised you most on that journey? I would, yeah, a very, very good question. I would say maybe a surprise, maybe actually not a surprise, maybe more very lucky to be in such a dynamic industry and space. I think like many people coming out of college or university, you don't know exactly what you're going to do. And I, I happened to join this organisation that was very passionate about energy. And I think what's very exciting is that this, this is a very dynamic, always changing space. The technology advances, the regulatory, the, the energy landscape is always changing. So I, I've never been bored. I've never been sitting too long and, and not not excited about what I'm working on. So I think that was probably maybe a surprise, but also, a, a great blessing for me. Let's start with the big picture. What would you say is the biggest single challenge companies face today when they're trying to integrate sustainability into their supply chains? Yes. So one of the biggest challenges I would say is not knowing where to start. Companies and clients that we talk with all around the world in many cases goals are being set in the boardroom. So targets are being set. Companies see this either as pressure from clients or customers, pressure from stakeholders or shareholders. And so a lot of times companies are setting targets, but then the planning is coming second. And so a lot of clients that we work with are asking, okay, so my company set a target for 50% green energy adoption by 2030, where do I even begin? And I think that single question seems to be probably the most common that we hear from clients. And that question always seems to be answered with it starts with data. And that's probably one of the biggest challenges for our companies and, and our clients is around understanding what that data is in order to set you know, a data point connecting to a larger strategy and how to make that connection happened. And how do they start that data journey? So a lot of clients we talk to are not even entirely sure what their data or, or what they should be measuring. And so with sustainability goals or with ESG, depending on the scope of the, the ambition for the organisation, you have to tie that back to a good data strategy or a reporting strategy. And data can come in all different shapes and sizes. And it's really important to understand the the scope or the perimeter of the baseline that you wanna begin with. So I think first setting a goal. So maybe using the example of, of a green energy target, in order to set a target for adopting green energy, you have to understand what kind of energy you're using in the first place. So being able to really wrap your arms around what is the size of the portfolio? What are all the different assets or or uses of energy that are happening from our operations? Being able to classify that energy and then building a very strong and accurate baseline to then be able to plan how to achieve a 20 or 30 or 50% reduction is important. And is it energy or is it carbon or is it both? Because you know yourself, energy can be anything from fuel for trucks to electricity for lighting. But if the electricity for the lighting or heating or whatever comes from renewable energy, then it's not registering on the carbon scale. That's that's exactly right. Well, all that data that's that's probably the origin before you get can get to a measurement of carbon. And so you're exactly right. I mean, first you can start with even basic I would say site or meter information, asset information. So cars, locations, square footage, Zip codes. I mean, things that are gonna help you map to the appropriate emission factors, understanding the kind of fuel. So this isn't actually KWH or KWH or therm. This is actually just information to help direct to understand what the output is in terms of of what you mentioned on carbon. So being able to build a robust accurate data set of not just usage information, but all of the other identifying information that you need in order to build a robust baseline to even begin to understand the kind of energy that you're using to, to manage and execute on your operations is important. So it's much bigger than just the usage number. It's actually all of the other ancillary information that helps ensure that that data point is accurate and rich. Okay. And what would you say is the most common mistake you see companies making when it comes to this kind of data? So I believe really starting with a strategy. And so it's very easy to say, okay, we're just gonna pull a list of all of our locations in a certain country or all of our locations in a in a set of operations and then be able to, to start from there. But I think starting from the beginning of what exactly do we want to report, how do we want to report, what part of our operations is actually included in the reporting because you can find you can go through a lot of actions in order to aggregate data to start calculating and understanding, you know, scope 1, 2, 3, and being able to design a baseline, and then you find that you've omitted a, a certain part of the operations, or you forgot a, a portion of it, or we missed an acquisition that happened several years ago. And so a lot of companies start down the path very hurriedly because there's a, a pressing timeline, there's pressure to report or to announce, and then they find that they're missing pieces of it. And we've seen more and more companies that are having to go back and restate because of this. And it's, it's one thing to restate because of changing business conditions, divested a a operations or acquired an organisation, but it's another thing to restate because mistakes were made. And it's very important for companies to start at the beginning to really build that strategy of how they wanna report, what are the goals they wanna achieve, and how they will commit to reporting on progress going forward, because again, you can set a baseline, but to the importance here is to really understand progress against from that baseline to, a, target or to a goal. And having that strategy very well articulated upfront is important. And if sustainability data were a currency, what would be its gold standard? In other words, what do you think is the most valuable type of data that companies should be focusing on collecting first? Oh, interesting. So I think one, having a way to consistently extract energy usage. So being able to have confidence that the extraction of that data is reliable. It's reoccurring and that there is validation to that data. So to your point, probably the, highest currency would be data that has been validated by a third party. But starting even to that point to start, you have to have confidence that you have the entire perimeter captured. And so, really building and understanding a process that you have to get this information on a reoccurring basis and that it is accurate and the, collection of that information does not change. Once you go and you put a process in place to extract that information, whether it's through an external third party, a bill processor, whether it's through sub meters reporting into a database that that is the, the way that that information will be gathered going forward and the methodologies and the handling of that information does not change. It can change, but then there's explanation and documentation to make sure that as you're calculating progress, that that's being tracked effectively. Okay. And the 64 million question, how can companies ensure that their data doesn't just sit in a report, but actually drives real change? Yeah, this is one of the biggest questions and we recently did a a net zero report where we surveyed hundreds of professionals in commercial and industrial businesses to ask them about this progress and so many of these companies stated that we talk and we establish goals, but less than 20% actually felt like they were critical that they were critical to the organisation and that those goals weren't effectively being tracked. And a lot of it's because of the importance that the company puts on those goals internally and really implements and integrates those goals into their operations. So it's very easy to state something externally. It's very easy to make a commitment. And actually what we found was in that survey, over 80% of these companies actually had stated some kind of an external goal when it came to carbon reduction, brown to green energy conversion. But internally, it didn't feel like it had the same importance. And you're never going to be able to drive change until you really make an impact inside of the, the culture. And I would say holding those different teams inside of the organisation accountable. So that's making sure it ties to annual goal planning. You see some companies that tie it to executive compensation, which can really help make sure that the focus is there. But then a lot of companies struggle because again, there's external goals that are reported, but then internally. How those goals are being tracked and broken down into different milestones along that timeline and being able to really back that up with actionable planning and I would say projects or, or implementation efforts that need to be done in order to achieve those goals. And we have seen, at least in the US, a change in administration. Is there a fear amongst your clients that the new administration will say we are not sourcing from any companies that have stated sustainability programs? That's a really good question. And Tom, you're exactly right. I've been spending a lot of time with our clients over the past couple of months and having a lot of discussions. And I would say clients and professionals that are in the roles of sustainability like you mentioned you're seeing some, fear there. And I think the fear is, that projects critical, I would say milestones and efforts to implement will be deprioritised. Because of other things being pushed to the, the top of the agendas. And, what's interesting is our, our company, we've been in business for over 30 years. So we've been through many administrations and we've continued to see the need for rich data and information to be able to track progress, whether it's direct for sustainability, whether it's energy efficiency. But I think there's this unification that the goal, the timeline for the goal is much longer than any administration. And that we need to continue to, to keep progress. And I will also say this. I think regardless of what happens in one country like I said, Engie Impact works with companies around the world. The thing that really keeps us motivated and I would say, and also keeps our clients needing support from companies like Engie Impact is that this is a very dynamic world and different countries have made different commitments. You know, we've got GRESB reporting requirements. You've got even just in the US alone, you've got the, the bills that were passed in California you've got the Local 97 in New York city. I mean, there's a lot of different actions that can be taken, not just at our country government levels, but you have local, you have state. And so there is a lot of support that continues to be in place for sustainability, for our ability to manage our resources more effectively. And it becomes, I would say it becomes more of a of a way to structure and look for project approval to look for initiative approval when it's not just sustainability, but we're also talking about resilience. We're talking about the ability to effectively manage our business when there's more and more demand for energy that we know is coming over the next decade because of AI and data centers and and just the draw on the grid that's going to occur that we have to effectively manage these resources. And so I think some of this comes from how individuals in, in this space, how these decision makers, or I would say heads of sustainability of facilities can help explain and align the benefits of these projects to ensure that they remain on corporate agendas and ensure they remain a priority. So I think the, the conversation out there is there is still belief in what we do. There's still belief that we need to ensure that we're providing resilient and strong operations and how we structure these projects and these programs are going to be important to ensure that we continue to get support for them to be implemented and approved. Okay. It becomes more complex again, though, doesn't it, when we take into account things like scope three emissions and scope 3 emissions requirements, because the requirements require data, obviously from suppliers, partners, logistics providers, et cetera. So now if, even if you as a company are still on board, if some of your partners, customers, suppliers are not, it makes the whole thing a lot more, a lot more challenging. no? Yes, you're right. And we, we work with some clients who are very large global organisations and they require their suppliers to report their emissions into a database that those companies have put together. And in some cases, it's a choice in how they choose suppliers, if they're able to report or not. And what's interesting over the past several years, we've had several I would say mid-market companies coming to us where maybe they haven't pulled emissions together before, but as a business development effort, as an imperative for growth and, for revenue generation these larger corporations are holding firm. But I would say, you're right. We've seen over just in the past month, we've seen some large global companies backing away from this. And when you don't have that pressure to influence the scope three, you're right their scope three, others, scope one and two to report. You can see a, a wavering. And I think that's where you have these other regulations, state regulations based on the size of the company in New York, based on the size of the building where, this is a very complex landscape and it's gonna continue to be complex and companies are gonna have to either take it upon themselves to understand the changing regulatory environment, or they're going to have to leverage a partner to be able to do that. So. It's interesting times that we're in for sure. Sure. I mean, is it going to be the case if you have all these different levels of requirements that you just go for the, the strictest level of requirements and that way you can hit all the medium and lighter ones along the way. Yeah, I guess I guess you could see that, you could see companies making decisions on I guess it depends a little bit on the core value of these companies of what they believe they truly believe that sustainability is part of their values, part of their operation. And are they reporting because they believe that for them to attract talent, to attract other like-minded partners that this is something that they would want to invest in. And then you have some companies that are going to navigate, we're gonna do what we have to do in order to survive, and in order to seek out and and make sure that we're able to remain competitive in this different landscape. So I think each company is gonna have to evaluate what makes sense for their business. and, And we've seen wild declarations across the board. I mean, we've seen some companies coming out and reaffirming their commitment. We've seen where shareholders have rejected proposals to even investigate the removal of things like DEI and others. And then we've seen some companies that took it away within a week. And so, like I said, we're in a very dynamic time. And it'll be interesting to see how this continues to evolve. And if we talk about then the topic of energy procurement, it's become a very, it becomes a high stakes game, hasn't it? With volatility and costs and regulations and decarbonisation goals. So what do you see companies getting wrong when they try to transition to cleaner energy sources? Yes. So, I would say clean energy resources. I mean, the, the good thing is, is that there continues to be more and more demand for clean energy sources. I think the challenging thing is the capacity being able to keep up with the demand. And I would say one, we have companies that like I mentioned, there's companies that come out and set these goals and they set these requirements as part of their businesses, without doing the work upfront to understand, do they have access to this kind of power? And also I would say thinking about the kind of power partner or power arrangement that works for the business. So for some businesses being able to procure green power from hundreds of miles away from their operation, as long as they can check the box. Sometimes that's okay. We have other companies who are very passionate that they wanna be able to source or develop projects and source very close to the the communities where they operate and where they serve. And so you know, it's kind of a cliche, but really starting with the strategy, understanding what what is the goal ultimately? Yes, it is to source green power, but what are the other benefits? What's core of that company in terms of clean power strategies and being able to plan for that upfront. I would also say now there are so many different vehicles and arrangements when it comes to securing green power. So you have VPPAs, PPAs, you have community solar. There's just so many different things that you can do in terms of financial structures that getting really good advice on what is the company's risk appetite. We have some companies that are very comfortable signing 10 15 year agreements. And then you have some companies that based on the, I would say the changing landscape for their business or what they have planned for their business in the future that, that might not work, but there still are abilities to access green power. And so again, it's it's very important to to find a partner or to hire an expert in that space that can help those companies plan those things upfront. So it's very important to do some of this work upfront before commitments are set, so that they have a very, very higher likelihood of being achieved. The whole idea of PPAs is an interesting one, isn't it? Because the cost of solar has dropped 90 percent in the last 10 years. So if you signed a PPA for solar 10 years ago, you're paying way over the odds for it Yes. But on the other hand, you also are able to budget for the next 10 years, a static energy price when we've had huge volatility in the market in the last number of years as well. So how do people square that circle? Oh, I know Well, well, you're exactly right. And again, so, so much of this has to do with being fully educated on the risk on the market, on trends that we're seeing. I mean, you're right for solar and others. I mean, there was, expectation that costs would go down over time. I mean, we have some clients that have signed up for, or purchased so much capacity that now they actually don't need it or they're changing their I would say their strategies. And so they're looking to actually sell their capacity stake in certain projects to other companies. So it creates this other marketplace. And again, it's all about planning. It's all about really understanding upfront what you need, where you imagine the company is going to go, risk appetite, the direction of energy and the, the ability to source renewables. And then again being able to execute that strategy according to what fits into the company structure. So, yes, I mean, these, are, these are stories that we're definitely hearing, especially from some of those early movers that came out and then now they're trying to understand what their options are to make a change, Okay. And if you had a crystal ball, how would you see corporate energy strategies evolving over the next decade? Will we still be talking about scope one, two or three, or is you think a more holistic approach on the horizon or what do you think will happen? I think. Yeah, that's, that's a really good question. If I had a crystal ball, you know, there, there would be a, a trajectory in the business that would be much different. But I, I think we'll be talking a lot about scope 1, 2, 3. I think it's a, it's a good framework. And I think it's a framework that actually a, a lot of companies are still just learning about or, or exploring. And even there's some companies that haven't. and, And you've seen a few of these I would say declarations around reporting around understanding what scope 1, 2, 3 is around demanding visibility and how companies are using particularly scope one, two. and then this evolution on scope three I don't think it's going to go away and I think it'll be, it'll continue to be a, a framework that we'll be using for some time. Okay. And just back to the regulations again for a second, new rules, as we've said, keep popping up all over the world. It's like, I mean, companies must be getting serious whiplash. How should companies future proof their sustainability strategies when compliance is always changing. Yes. So it's a good point. And I think one companies understanding and, and planning very carefully where they're, doing business being connected and ensuring that they're getting information 'cause it's, it's not just about sustainability. I mean, there's all these regulations coming out about energy mix and you know, the building performance standards. I mean, there's just so much that is out there for, for anyone in these roles in a corporation to be able to, to digest. And so I think having access to, to a good partner or a good source of information to to, see what could be coming up. There, are some publications that companies can be a part of that'll show you what's going out or what's on the docket for the Senate or or state or local senates and and governments that could be coming in the next year or two. So, it's actually very important to be looking at the areas where your company does do business or where you might be anticipating to grow or acquire to look and see what's on the local legislation dockets, what's coming up because a lot of times there is some good visibility that you can see which can better help you with, with your planning to ensure that you don't put yourself into into a, a a troubling situation and having to make a very expensive change in order to comply. Okay. And this wouldn't be a kind of tech and sustainability podcast if we didn't bring up the topic of AI. How do you see AI playing a role in sustainability decision making and, how can companies use it effectively? Oh, I think AI is, is magnificent. And in the role of it in sustainability, I mean, in energy and maybe, starting as foundational as data collection. I know at at Engie impact, we've been doing a lot of work with AI, just from a, a data sense to be able to accurately predict and identify errors or or missing information when it comes to data sets or baselining, which is incredible. And then you have actually, I just met with a company last week that talked about how you see some of these ideas with AI being able to extrapolate energy consumption, matching it with carbon, looking at forecasts of weather and climate impact and being able to run scenario models of where businesses should deploy new sites or new new build based on historic impacts due to climate. I mean, there is so many applications for AI that we will see in our space that, that we can't even imagine yet. And so I think the embracing of AI being able to to understand this technology and building quick business cases and pilots is gonna be important for our space because I, do believe it is the next great disruptor. And and we're gonna see a lot of innovation that's gonna come of it particularly around sustainability and energy use. Okay. For companies that are just starting out on their sustainability journey, what's one, or three pieces of advice that you'd give them to help them, you know, achieve their goal? Yes. So I would say one. And I, I think I said it right at the beginning. It would be first set a goal, you know, under understand the ambition of sustainability, the importance of sustainability to the organisation. Do you wanna be a leader? Are you okay being a laggard? Are you okay with keeping up space and, and really using external benchmarks to be able to develop some strategies. There's a lot of work that's been done in this space. There's a lot of advisors and experts that are in this space, and fortunately or unfortunately, there are others out there that have moved forward and have made mistakes and have had to reset. So there's a lot to learn from looking externally. And I would say one use data to set informed goals. Two would be building a plan for I would say establishing those goals and then being able to imagine and, and develop those plans and how to execute. And then I would say three, develop a, a robust way to come back and report on progress. Goals can be set very easily but actually making progress against them is very challenging. And so being able to have a process that uses data, provides the right visibility and buy-in across the organisation to show impact or to course correct when maybe performance is deviating from goals is to really make sure that you have a higher chance of making an impact and achieving those sustainability goals at the end. Okay, what metrics or KPIs do you think companies should focus on to measure the success of their initiatives and ensure continuous improvement? Yeah, So, so there are a lot of different metrics that companies can use, whether it's a total reduction, whether it's reduction per square foot. I mean, a lot of companies manage things in terms of size of the perimeter. Some companies are able to use data to get much more granular when they're looking at things like carbon produced by a product line. Some companies like hospitality look at carbon per occupied room I mean there are so many creative ways to use data in order to develop metrics and kpis that are important to businesses or to your unique business. It's kind of a, a nice way to have some creativity and have some control in terms of the the way that goal setting can be done inside of organisations. But again, the most important thing is making sure that it can be tracked. That data can be extracted. It can be validated and it can be tracked. So it's very easy again to set a goal or a target. But then looking back, if you don't have, for instance, regular access to occupancy data, or you don't have access to production units on a certain product that would help really inform and, and measure the progress against those goals, then it's no better. So it really goes back to looking at the data and what are the most meaningful measures of impact to each organisation. And left field question. If you could have any person or character or dead, real or fictional, as a spokesperson for sustainability, who would it be and why? Oh my goodness. Who would it be? And why As a spokesperson for sustainability? Oh, that's a hard, I don't know. That's a hard's hard question. I'm trying to think Well, I actually, maybe a a great spokesperson for sustainability could be someone like Bono. I mean, you have these celebrities that have made such a great platform for themselves globally. And I know he invests in many climate funds. He's very active in sustainability. And I think we, we've heard from him in some aspects, but would love to hear from him more broadly. So he's a, that would be a great spokesperson and he could write incredible music about it. So maybe that's an angle. Fantastic. That, that or Taylor Swift, or if we could team the two of them up. We could do a panel, a musical panel on sustainability. It'd be wonderful. Super, super. Paige, we're coming towards the end of the podcast now. Is there any question I didn't ask that you wish I did, or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of? Actually, there is one. You know a lot of times when we have these presentations, or we talk about sustainability, a lot of people think that it's this audience or the topic is, is very much for VPs of Sustainability or, you know, the, the people inside of these companies that carry these roles. And actually, sustainability is something that encompasses and touches all roles in an organisation. So you can imagine finance, production, facilities, operations, and for sustainability to really be enacted, to be developed, to be implemented, it's important for leaders across the whole company, across a whole corporation to understand what it is, to understand the impact. And I think probably one of my biggest advices would be regardless of the role in the organisation, whether you're in legal, whether you're in finance, whether you're in HR. Being able to understand the company's approach and I would say goals to the, to sustainability or around sustainability. And then also what's important to suppliers and to employees is important because it really is for, for it to be truly adopted and implemented, it takes the whole organisation. So yeah, I would say that that regardless of what role you are in, in a, in an organisation, it's an important topic to understand I've, I've mentioned this a couple of times on the podcast as well, but I think with the increasing rigor that is being required around sustainability reporting, we're starting to see the Chief Sustainability Officer of organisations migrate from typically the CMO's organisation which tells its own story to the CFO's organisation. You are exactly right. Actually I met with a client last week and he he's the VP of Sustainability and he reports to finance. So you're exactly right because it is about measurement, validation, auditability. So you're really bringing a lot of these things that are very core to a finance organisation, right into this new data set. So I, I think that's a very good point and even more validates the importance of having a, a very good understanding of that, regardless of where you are. Indeed. Paige, if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them? Oh, wonderful. Yes. So, Engie Impact.com. That's our company's website and there's a link there for division under Sustainable Resource Management. So it has a lot of information on business cases, resources as well as some of the solutions and ways that we can help organisations as well with these very important goals and ambitions. So very happy to welcome them there. Fantastic. Paige, that's been brilliant. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. Thank you, Tom. I appreciate it. Okay. Thank you all for tuning into this episode of the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast with me, Tom Raftery. Each week, thousands of supply chain professionals listen to this show. If you or your organization want to connect with this dedicated audience, consider becoming a sponsor. You can opt for exclusive episode branding where you choose the guests or a personalized 30 second ad roll. It's a unique opportunity to reach industry experts and influencers. For more details, hit me up on Twitter or LinkedIn, or drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com. Together, let's shape the future of sustainable supply chains. Thanks. Catch you all next time.